Nigel Heather
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Can't undestand this rule - seems to be broken to me.

So this is how I have read it.

There is no ZERO on the VP Track.

The rules state that ZERO VP does not exist.

The rules gives an example - Japanese have 2VP so the marker is on '2' showing he Japanese side - that makes sense.

The Americans then win 2VP but rather than the net effect being ZERO the Americans now have 1VP

Okay so let's just accept that because it is what the rules say even though it makes absolutely no sense.

Moving on I have just played the first scenario and I have to say that it was ine of the most disappointing gaming experiences that I have ever experienced. I don't know whether it is just extremely unbalanced, the USMC are just useless or whether I simply had extremely unluckly dice throws. But the end result was that the USMC were anihilated without a single loss to the Japanese. So the Japanese got 13VPs, 12 for kills plus 1 that they start off with for free because the game can't apparently deal with ZERO VP.

But the bounty of Japanese VPs did give us a chance to use the VP 10+ marker, and this opens up another question.

It worked fine in this case because the Japanese were on 9VP and gained another 2VP which making 11VP so he 10+ marker went on the '1' - 10+1=11. But what if the Japanese had been on 8VP and then gained 2VP, making 10VP - whre on earth would they put the marker - there isn't a ZERO for 10+0=10 so it has to go onto the 1 meaning that th player got an extra VP.

Likewise if he Japanese were on 12 (10+ on the 2 space) and the Americans then scored 2VP where would you put the 10+ counter.

Screwed up in my opinion - there should either be a ZERO or the extended counter should read 9+.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Kirk Shelley
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I suspect the lack of the zero was driven by the desire to avoid drawn games but as you point out mathematically it creates problems. Those very same problems likely lead to its invention in the first place.

I also found the first battle seemed to favor the Japanese but I suspect after a few more attempts my game play will improve. The system does have a built in balancing mechanism. You can add a few more CAPs per turn to the Americans to see if they fare better. I think of this as adding a hero (John Wayne?) into their midst.
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You're spot on. It's broken. All the other games in the Conflict series have a zero space on the VP track. I just ignore that rule and play this one as if there's a zero as well. I'd love to hear the designers justification and how to deal with it.
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Walt Mulder wrote:
You're spot on. It's broken. All the other games in the Conflict series have a zero space on the VP track. I just ignore that rule and play this one as if there's a zero as well. I'd love to hear the designers justification and how to deal with it.


Are you sure about that? I know the solo expansion is no zero. Assumed it was a distinctive in the system.
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Martin Gallo
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Not broken at all, just not mathematically correct by modern standards. Think in Roman Numerals - No '0' there, '0' came later.

As was mentioned, it prevents draws or situations where there is no victory. One side is always winning. Really not a big deal mechanically. Instead of subtracting the way you were taught in school, just count down to '0', keeping remainder and then count back up from '1'.

Think of it as a "common core VP method" if that helps.
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I haven't had much issue with the VP counting you just think of it as a line like so:
US 9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 Japan

So that if the score is 2 VP Japan and the US scores 2 it is now 1 VP US.

Likewise the +10 VP marker doesn't really make a difference in score since there is that extra point gained AND lost whenever you cross the 9 to 11 point line:

US 13-12-11-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-11-12-13 Japan

I do agree that the +10 marker is a bit silly though, even if it doesn't make a scoring difference.
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Lewis Karl
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Just read section 2.5 and it's quite clear how VP counting works. In fact it gives the exact example situation mentioned above. No zero...so what?

As for FF1, not broken at all, but perhaps difficult. First time I played, in round 1, 1 US killed, 2 wounded, 1 Japanese killed and U.S. With positional advantage.
 
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I played FF1 solo when I got the game and my experience was opposite to yours. I got into the palm groves with the marines to get some cover and maybe help the marines collecting intel when they made their return. I took some Japanese units and placed then in LOS on the boat to try to kill any marines trying to escape. The end result was 3 lone marines running for their lives to the boat while being pursued and shot at. One marine was hit and pinned while the other two managed to leave on the boat. The marines lost by 1VP. I trully enjoyed the FF.

For my next try I'm thinking about hiding those marines in the groves.
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Nigel Heather
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pisqueeter wrote:
Just read section 2.5 and it's quite clear how VP counting works. In fact it gives the exact example situation mentioned above. No zero...so what?

As for FF1, not broken at all, but perhaps difficult. First time I played, in round 1, 1 US killed, 2 wounded, 1 Japanese killed and U.S. With positional advantage.


If you had read my post you would have clearly seen that I quoted that example from the rules. And I stated what they were saying about no ZERO but pointing out that it leads to silliness.

You have conveniently ignorred my main point, presumably because you don't have an answer so best keep quiet about that one and hope no one notices?

So I ask the examine question again

If you are on 8VP and you win another 2VP how many VP do you have? Please provide answers for both

(a) - in the real world
(b) - in the wibbly, wobbly world of Academy Games

answers on a postcard please

Cheers,

Nigel
 
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Nigel Heather
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Some examples of the stupidities of Academy Games arithmatic - maybe AG are like a singularity, as you get close to them normal physics and mathematics cease to function as expected.

Japanese

Start = 8
Gain = 2
End = 11


Start = 9
Gain = 2
End = 11


Start = 8
Gain = 2
Sub = 11
Gain = 1
End = 12


Start = 8
Gain = 1
Sub = 9
Gain = 2
End = 11

So if you get two objectives, the order in which you get them can result in different totals.


Start = 11
Lose = 1
End = 11


Start = 12
Lose = 1
End = 11


So here the USMC need to carefully plan when to claim the 1VP because if he chooses wrong it could have no value whatsoever.

What the game should have had

(a) a ZERO space and a 10+ counter

or

(b) no ZERO space and a 9+ counter

or

(c) no ZERO space, a track that goes up to 10 and a 10+ counter


Basically, AG have chosen not to have a ZERO, I still don't understand why, but they attempt to explain it with a simple example. Trouble is they haven't thought through all the anomolies that this creates, especially around the 9 to 11 transition.


Just pointing it out that's all. The solution for me is that I will use the space to the left of the '1' as a zero until someone on BGG with better graphics skills than me uploads an alternative to the files section.


Cheers,

Nigel
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James Palmer
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If you want it "mathematically correct", just subtract 0.5 from the numbers on the scoring board. Then it all makes perfect sense. One side starts at 0.5, if they lose a point, then the opposing side has 0.5.

Or, you could just leave it as is and get the exact same net result...
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nheather wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
Just read section 2.5 and it's quite clear how VP counting works. In fact it gives the exact example situation mentioned above. No zero...so what?

As for FF1, not broken at all, but perhaps difficult. First time I played, in round 1, 1 US killed, 2 wounded, 1 Japanese killed and U.S. With positional advantage.


If you had read my post you would have clearly seen that I quoted that example from the rules. And I stated what they were saying about no ZERO but pointing out that it leads to silliness.

You have conveniently ignorred my main point, presumably because you don't have an answer so best keep quiet about that one and hope no one notices?

So I ask the examine question again

If you are on 8VP and you win another 2VP how many VP do you have? Please provide answers for both

(a) - in the real world
(b) - in the wibbly, wobbly world of Academy Games

answers on a postcard please

Cheers,

Nigel





snippy snippy!

Here's the solution.

1. The designer wanted it to be this way.
2. You're not the designer.
3. You're a gamer.
4. You're free to house rule whatever you want.
5. You're free to mess up rules if you want or accidentally.
6. If you're playing in a tournament or against other players, follow the rules as designed.
7. You're not the designer.
8. If you're playing friends and both agree, then use your house rule.
9. Have fun.
10. Don't be snippy.
 
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Lewis Karl
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nheather wrote:
Some examples of the stupidities of Academy Games arithmatic - maybe AG are like a singularity, as you get close to them normal physics and mathematics cease to function as expected.

Japanese

Start = 8
Gain = 2
End = 11


Correct


Quote:
Start = 9
Gain = 2
End = 11


Wrong. Starting at 9 move two "spaces" up, which means 10+1, then 10+2=12.

Just as there is no "0", there is no "10".

Quote:

Start = 8
Gain = 2
Sub = 11
Gain = 1
End = 12


Correct, same as previous result (which I corrected to 12)

Quote:

Start = 8
Gain = 1
Sub = 9
Gain = 2
End = 11


No, there is no 10 space. So you end up at 12.

Quote:
So if you get two objectives, the order in which you get them can result in different totals.


No wrong, as I have just demonstrated above.

Quote:

Start = 11
Lose = 1
End = 11


Wrong. End = 9

Quote:

Start = 12
Lose = 1
End = 11


Correct

Quote:
So here the USMC need to carefully plan when to claim the 1VP because if he chooses wrong it could have no value whatsoever.


Wrong.
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Lewis Karl
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nheather wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
Just read section 2.5 and it's quite clear how VP counting works. In fact it gives the exact example situation mentioned above. No zero...so what?

As for FF1, not broken at all, but perhaps difficult. First time I played, in round 1, 1 US killed, 2 wounded, 1 Japanese killed and U.S. With positional advantage.


If you had read my post you would have clearly seen that I quoted that example from the rules. And I stated what they were saying about no ZERO but pointing out that it leads to silliness.

You have conveniently ignorred my main point, presumably because you don't have an answer so best keep quiet about that one and hope no one notices?

So I ask the examine question again

If you are on 8VP and you win another 2VP how many VP do you have? Please provide answers for both

(a) - in the real world
(b) - in the wibbly, wobbly world of Academy Games

answers on a postcard please

Cheers,

Nigel


So now presumably you understand why reading section 2.5 and following the example helps and perhaps working it out using the score sheet before flipping out. By the way, the answer in both (a) and (b) is 11 VP.
 
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Martin Gallo
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Did it never occur to anyone that the '0' VP space is just the flipping over of the VP marker? If you are at 1 VP and lose 1 VP just put the VP marker off the left edge, and remember that it is at '0'.

As for other VP math stuff just use "real world" math and the track. 9VP + 1VP is 10 VP and you can put the +10 marker ai either end of the track, just off to the side, like an adult.

Now please go on with your lives.whistle
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Lewis Karl
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Yeah, but why not just follow the rules. Its easier. You don't add. You move the VP counter up and down or flip it when going below 1.
 
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While this system works, and gets you the same net result, I think it would have been easier to just say if scoring is tied at zero, whoever's faction was last winning (or who's tile is face up) wins. That way the math "makes sense" and there is no draw.

So for example, the Japanese are up by 2 points, the US gains 2 points and the game ends. The point marker slides to zero with the Japanese marker remaining face up. The IJN is declared the winner.

As I read this back, I think it does yield a slightly different result, but if whenever the VP marker reaches zero it is flipped to the other side, then I think that gives the same result the designers intended, while allowing for players to track 0 & 10 VPs as needed.
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Martin Gallo
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pisqueeter wrote:
Yeah, but why not just follow the rules. Its easier. You don't add. You move the VP counter up and down or flip it when going below 1.
Easier for some, as has been seen in this thread.
 
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martimer wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
Yeah, but why not just follow the rules. Its easier. You don't add. You move the VP counter up and down or flip it when going below 1.
Easier for some, as has been seen in this thread.


Wait until people go way back in history and discover that there was no calendar year ZERO

Simply make a basic chart and post it as a file for all to benefit from:
U.S. 9,8,7,...3,2,1,(flip counter/or put zero here)1,2,3,...7,8,9 Japan(I believe this idea was already posted by some one else) If need be add more point spaces: U.S. 20,19,18,...3,2,1,(flip counter or add 0)1,2,3,...18,19,20

It's a similar push/pull or give/take victory point system used in other games and systems of scoring.

Or make a chart that has separate victory point graphs for U.S. and Japan, with no push pull between the two sides. If Japan gains 2 v.p. then their chart goes up 2, and nothing happens to the U.S. chart and vice versa. If Japan losses v.p.'s then their chart goes down, again no change to U.S. chart. Each player would track their own V.P.'s, so if there is a situation where both sides v.p.'s are affected by the same scoring event, then both sides track their own. Put a zero and a ten on it, go to a hundred if need be.

Which ever way works for the individual player(s) go with that and simply have fun playing the game. Live vicariously through the Marines, and Army soldiers, who are looking to help their fellow band of brothers or through the Japanese units conducting banzai charges and fighting to the last man.

If in serious play with your gaming group or in tournament play, the rules will be clearly established ahead of time.

Have fun and try to enjoy the game, whichever way that is.
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Lewis Karl
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Given that what is being charted is the relative difference in VP, I think its pretty unlikely the marker is ever going to go above 9. I'll lay odds that no one has actually had the missing "10" problem yet and this is just anticipatory griping. The kicker is that if one side ever gets +9 above the other, the game is over anyway.
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Erik Stonemark
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pisqueeter wrote:
Given that what is being charted is the relative difference in VP, I think its pretty unlikely the marker is ever going to go above 9. I'll lay odds that no one has actually had the missing "10" problem yet and this is just anticipatory griping. The kicker is that if one side ever gets +9 above the other, the game is over anyway.


I think that in 9 times out of 10(or is that 9 or 11) you are probably correct. But for that rare exception where utter simplicity is required maybe the charts should just be a series of points on a line with a dividing mark in the middle to represent the division between US and Japan vp's.
Move the vp counter as many points as needed and let everyone take care of their own mathematics(whether traditional, new, fuzzy or common core).

Ex:-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-/-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

This topic should never of gotten this much attention. In all fairness, everyone should be able to either work it the way it is or come up with something on their own if they don't like it.


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Martin Gallo
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redblackmonkey wrote:
This topic should never of gotten this much attention. In all fairness, everyone should be able to either work it the way it is or come up with something on their own if they don't like it.
I was going to make a joke about adding a warning to the box: :Not recommended for arithmetically or common sense challenged challenged people" but did not after taking flak in the thread about the map graphics. It is just not worth the hassle.

It occurs to me that this game is just cursed by strong opinions - Remember that thread about the box cover?
 
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martimer wrote:
redblackmonkey wrote:
This topic should never of gotten this much attention. In all fairness, everyone should be able to either work it the way it is or come up with something on their own if they don't like it.
I was going to make a joke about adding a warning to the box: :Not recommended for arithmetically or common sense challenged challenged people" but did not after taking flak in the thread about the map graphics. It is just not worth the hassle.

It occurs to me that this game is just cursed by strong opinions - Remember that thread about the box cover?


Strong opinions are one thing, but there is a lessening in attitude to look at things from different angles. To me this is where bgg usually shines, I find things that I would of never thought of myself and occassionally see things in a new way. There doesn't seem to be any grey anymore, everything is black or white, no middle ground. Rules are rules versus house rules or I'll play it however I want that makes the most sense to me. People seem to over react and call something broken when maybe it is just their view of things that are different from others. That is pefectly fine, just don't expect everyone to agree or have the same opinion or viewpoint. And may god forbid a little humor once in a while.
I will spend more of my time playing the games I like, and try to help where I can.
 
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Lewis Karl
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No one has said the OP can't house rule the scoring however he wants. In fact there were several suggestions. So I think the thread is pretty open to house rules.

However, when a post suggests a rule is "broken" or uses words like "stupidities" after the original premise of broken rule is refuted, the appropriate procedure is to quote the rules and explain them. In that sense the thread is "black and white" and not gray.

The missing "10" is a bit odd (and perhaps the token was meant to be "9+" not "10+"), but the fact remains that the scoring method still works and almost never will the relative score cross from "9" to "11" so the point about missing "10" is only theoretical at best.
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