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Giacomo Peroni
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Milano
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Hello,
I've tried the game twice. I won the first one at the second Winter using Belgic, with Aedui as runners up and lost the second as the Arverni with the Aedui winning after the final winter and with Belgic as runners up. In both these games, Romans ended up last.

Now, I noticed that the Arverni, in both these games, played a cat-and-mouse chase for the fabled, but always fleeing legions (in the second game aided by the "free march" capability, which appears a little bit broken to me, as it allows the roman to march at 0 even from devastated regions...). Most of the time those legions were all packed with Caesar in a single block and always escaped battle. The Arverni player did the best that he could while trying to keep up his "ally" condition against the Aedui: they tried to cut the supply line by devastating, move Vercingetorix with a huge army trying to engage or ambush the Romans and so, but Caesar could always afford to march his army and pay for them during winter.
Now it seems that, while Belgic and Aedui victory conditions reward good play on their behalf, Arverni victory condition requires that the Arverni player plays good but also that Roman player plays recklessly. If the Roman doesn't spread his legions leaving them often unprotected, the Arverni has no way of sending legions off-map, making it impossible for the Arverni player to win. And the other two factions have absolutely no interest in sending the legions off-map because that would only bring a third faction in competition for winning.

Am I the only one that realized that? How is an Arverni player meant to win if the Roman legions are always hyperprotected or flee so often?

Thanks for any reply.
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Alex P
France
La Plaine St-Denis
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Your experience seems to be with Roman players that try hard not to allow you to win and end up dead last. I.e. that player's obviously not playing effectively and until he (or they) stop playing keep-away, the Arverni will have a hard time but the Roman will never stand a chance.
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Niko
Canada
Calgary
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Jesse Custer wrote:
Your experience seems to be with Roman players that try hard not to allow you to win and end up dead last. I.e. that player's obviously not playing effectively and until he (or they) stop playing keep-away, the Arverni will have a hard time but the Roman will never stand a chance.
That's a bingo!
See here for a similar discussion, albeit from a different premise: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603363/caesar-legions-seem...
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Giacomo Peroni
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Thanks both for your replies.
So you confirm that a Roman player that plays suboptimally just cut the Arverni out from winning, without giving them any other chance? That seems kind of frustrating!
Belgae player can win if any other specific faction plays suboptimally.
Aedui player too can win if any other specific faction does so.
Why isn't there a chance for the Arverni too?
I have experience with other COINs too, and I've never seen something like that. I hope that there's something that I'm not seeing here... whistle
 
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Tom M
United Kingdom
Colchester
Essex
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There is a card (granted it may have been removed during the set up phase) That helps deal with a defensive Roman player. Because legionnaires parked together in a Fort are neigh on impossible to kill.
I forget the name of it but the Arverni have 1st priority so as long as you pay attention to the upcoming card its near impossible not to be able to claim the event.
The card enables Arverni to win without killing a single legion.
So long as:
A. They have met their ally requirement
B. The Roman player is doing badly (top of my head at arround 12 subdued tribes.)
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Michal K
Poland
Otwock
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Indeed, this is achieved by playing below event:

20. Optimates
Civil war looms: Keep this card by the Winter track. Upon the
game’s 2nd and each later Victory Phase, if Roman victory exceeds
12, first remove all Legions to the Legions track, then end the game
and determine victory.


That is devastating for Romans and key for Arverni win without single battle with Romans.
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Michal K
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Also useful:

7. Alaudae
Legion formed in Gaul: Romans place 1 Legion and 1 Auxilia in
a Roman Controlled Region.
Locally raised Legion unreliable: If the Legions track has 7 or fewer
Legions, remove 1 Legion to the track and 1 Auxilia to Available.
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Giacomo Peroni
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mk20336 wrote:
Indeed, this is achieved by playing below event:

20. Optimates
Civil war looms: Keep this card by the Winter track. Upon the
game’s 2nd and each later Victory Phase, if Roman victory exceeds
12, first remove all Legions to the Legions track, then end the game
and determine victory.


That is devastating for Romans and key for Arverni win without single battle with Romans.


Weeeeell... on this, my bad... I've had chance to play this but I misread the card... cry I thought that the victory condition was going to apply before removing the legions from the game! But even tho this event can overturn the situation for the Arverni, making their chance of victory easier, it isn't automatically present in the deck, so doesn't always solve the problem (but I'm kicking myself for not seeing it!)

mk20336 wrote:
Also useful:

7. Alaudae
Legion formed in Gaul: Romans place 1 Legion and 1 Auxilia in
a Roman Controlled Region.
Locally raised Legion unreliable: If the Legions track has 7 or fewer
Legions, remove 1 Legion to the track and 1 Auxilia to Available.

This one I did, and went from 2 to 3 legions in the last track.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Excellent observations above, thanks! A few more considerations:

- You can kill Legions even when they pack together and try to run, if you have caused enough attrition to their Auxilia: instead of using Battle, March into the Roman Army with enough for Arverni Control and immediately Devastate. Unless protected by (enough) Auxilia, Legions will starve automatically (a Fort will not protect them from hunger, or will any lucky Battle dice save them).

- You can win the game without removing a single Legion--even without Optimates. You don't need a positive score to win, only a better score than the Romans and an equal score to the Aedui and Belgae (you win ties against them). In your situation, you can ignore the apparently ineffective Roman player and use your massive numbers of Warbands to Devastate Aedui and Belgae Rallying grounds to keep them down, then kill off or Entreat their Allies. (Historically, if the Romans are not too threatening, the Arverni would be happy to continue their long tradition of bashing other Celts!)

Enjoy, Volko
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Volko Ruhnke
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mk20336 wrote:
Indeed, this is achieved by playing below event:

20. Optimates
Civil war looms: Keep this card by the Winter track. Upon the
game’s 2nd and each later Victory Phase, if Roman victory exceeds
12, first remove all Legions to the Legions track, then end the game
and determine victory.


That is devastating for Romans and key for Arverni win without single battle with Romans.

Devastating for an ineffective Caesar, or a quicker win for an effective one! Either way, a reduced incentive for him to husband his precious little Legions: Use 'em or lose 'em!
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P. Fowler
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Indianapolis
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The rich and powerful take what they want. We steal it back for you.
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Also don't forget about Lost Eagle, which allows you to pull a Fallen Legion completely out of play!
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Giacomo Peroni
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Volko wrote:
Excellent observations above, thanks! A few more considerations:

- You can kill Legions even when they pack together and try to run, if you have caused enough attrition to their Auxilia: instead of using Battle, March into the Roman Army with enough for Arverni Control and immediately Devastate. Unless protected by (enough) Auxilia, Legions will starve automatically (a Fort will not protect them from hunger, or will any lucky Battle dice save them).

- You can win the game without removing a single Legion--even without Optimates. You don't need a positive score to win, only a better score than the Romans and an equal score to the Aedui and Belgae (you win ties against them). In your situation, you can ignore the apparently ineffective Roman player and use your massive numbers of Warbands to Devastate Aedui and Belgae Rallying grounds to keep them down, then kill off or Entreat their Allies. (Historically, if the Romans are not too threatening, the Arverni would be happy to continue their long tradition of bashing other Celts!)

Enjoy, Volko


Thanks Volko!
I'm starting to think that you're right. If the Roman doesn't play at his best, probably the best thing to do is to bash the two other Gallic factions and shoot for the final scoring.
I guess that, like the other games of the COIN system, I'd better play more and more to get all the shadings behind them!
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Rich Radgoski
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Gouldsboro
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Just got this game and played through the tutorial... But wanted to say I loved this thread. My biggest hang up with the coin series is not knowing what to do...why I'm doing it. It *seems* to me hard to achieve your ends and can lead to a frustrating experience.... but I'm starting to see the vision...and understanding that these games aren't euro's they are true strategy games and I better start thinking strategically makes me excited.

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Niko
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Arkobla Conn wrote:
Just got this game and played through the tutorial... But wanted to say I loved this thread. My biggest hang up with the coin series is not knowing what to do...why I'm doing it. It *seems* to me hard to achieve your ends and can lead to a frustrating experience.... but I'm starting to see the vision...and understanding that these games aren't euro's they are true strategy games and I better start thinking strategically makes me excited.
I've also found that most often it takes a streak of luck or a mistake by another player to achieve the winning condition. With experienced players most games should last to the end and come down to who is closest to winning.
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Gregory Philips
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You need 6 off-map legions to win. You start the game with 4 of them off-map already in the Legion track, and Caesar ain't getting his hands on those if he can't get the senate to back him. THAT is something you can control. You devastate and you rally and you control territory. And if you're playing a 4-player game, convince the Belgae of the necessity of this, and come to some kind of an arrangment. If the Roman player is smart, he's going to take a stab at smashing the german tribes before they can cause him too much trouble, in the process sopping up easy territory that will have the senate eating out of his hands, and releasing those final 4 legions. The Belgae don't want to hand you victory, but they don't want to see Caesar marching around Gaul with 12 Legions any more than you do. If the senate is restless, those 4 Legions are NOT coming into the game. You have a fair shot of removing the two extra legions necessary for victory just from event cards. Now, granted, my experience has been that the Romans, if careful, can make it very hard to kill legions, but at some point you or the Belgae are going to get a shot or two at taking some out, and it doesn't matter who takes them off the board, as long as they're off the board, it helps you win.
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Gregory Philips
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Arkobla Conn wrote:
Just got this game and played through the tutorial... But wanted to say I loved this thread. My biggest hang up with the coin series is not knowing what to do...why I'm doing it. It *seems* to me hard to achieve your ends and can lead to a frustrating experience.... but I'm starting to see the vision...and understanding that these games aren't euro's they are true strategy games and I better start thinking strategically makes me excited.



This has been my experience. I have Falling Sky and A Distant Plain, and in both cases the first time I tried to play through it I was lost an felt like I was wandering blindly through hell. Then at some point the constant immersion in the historical detail kicks in and you just start to SEE it. In both cases it clicked once I finally had it in my head how the opposing forces relate to each other and the rules. When you march a bunch of legions right into a mass of Arverni and get your ass handed to you, then you learn that you can't do that, and in future games you start to see other opportunities on the board and ways to maybe maneuver them into coming to you. Same with ADP, only obviously different because the rules are different. I have a copy of Liberty or Death on the way and I have no doubt there's going to be a similar learning curve...
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Volko Ruhnke
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And hopefully the "wandering blindly through hell" part itself is not quite as unpleasant as it sounds!
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Gregory Philips
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Oh, not at all, at least not from my point of view. But if you put yourself in the perspective of one of those poor Roman auxilia or Coalition troops that those cubes represent, wandering back and forth and sometimes getting cut to ribbons as a result of orders that literally make no sense because the guy giving the orders is still not entirely hip to the rules, I imagine "wandering through hell" is a good description....
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Volko Ruhnke
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The soldier's lot!
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