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Subject: When will board gamers realize that... rss

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Justin Strickland
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publishers are companies and in order to pay their employees wages and fund new projects they need to make money! Every time a new game is announced I see so many posts about how it's just a "money grab", or it's running the IP in to the ground, or sometimes flat out calling the publisher greedy. This post is particularly in response to Star Wars: Destiny recently announced by Fantasy Flight, but I see many similar responses against them and other publishers with how they handle new games and popular IPs. Here are just a few of the responses to Star Wars: Destiny:

ClanNatioy wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
About the collectible model of Star Wars: Destiny, game designer Lukas Litzsinger said, “We haven’t made a collectible game in years, even though many gamers enjoy this format’s aspects of discovery and trading. Star Wars: Destiny is a game that could only exist within this category, and we’re excited to reenter the collectible marketplace and start supporting fans of this genre once more.”


This is really funny. His statement is saying "were doing it for the gamers" but the real reason they've made it a collectable game is because Star Wars has a lot mass market appeal and this will get them more money.


CeeTee2001 wrote:
This is the first Star Wars game from FFG that include preqel characters (i think). That alone is proof they are just in it for the money imo. They have stayed clear oft the prequels in their games for a long time. Now they need all the characters they can get to be able to sell even more cards... This is a huge disappointment and a big pass for me!

Why do you think they have included the prequels characters?


Falccor77 wrote:
I love the response of a company has the right to make as much money as they can, and by love I mean hate. The biggest problem I have with it is most of the time they try to play off their greed by saying its for the benefit of someone else, when it totally is not. The collectable model is one of the worst in my opinion and why I stopped any purchase of krosmaster after season 2. Pure greed, and no, greed is not good.


Honestly, I don't understand these outcries. The whole reason companies exist is to make money. Why is that a bad thing? If you have a job, aren't you just in it for the money? Shouldn't we want game companies to be successful so that they can make even more games? Don't most people that have jobs want their companies to be successful so that they can keep their jobs?

At the end of the day, I have a really hard time believing that publishers sit around all day cackling maniacally about how much money they're gonna take out of gamers pockets. It takes a huge team effort to see a project through conception to completion: from the original game design, to art and graphics, to prototyping, to playtesting, to printing, to coordinating distribution. I'm not saying you have to like every game, or like every publisher's business practices, but show a little respect for what these people do for a living.

What do you think about "money grabs", "greedy publishers", "jumping the shark" when it comes to popular IPs? Do you agree with me that many gamers are unjustified in demonizing companies? Or do you think they are right in calling out publishers in this way?
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Jason Bush
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People like "control" (an illusion) and because they lose more control in this type of production, they don't like it.
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Matthew Kokaly
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Making money does not appear to be the issue of many commenters here, it's how they make the money. It looks like a lot of people on these forums don't like ANAs strategy and tactics. Maybe they have experienced it before in another industry, maybe they are fearful of the creation of such a large entity so quickly, maybe they feel the market is being manipulated, lots of possible reasons. Maybe start a poll?

I'm pretty sure everyone knows a company needs to make money so I'm confused as to how you came about your assertion.
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Yaron Davidson
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OK, so two quick things:

1. For games with a known IP, the reason that IP was chosen (under the valid assumption that it would make money) is because there are a lot of people who are interested in that IP, and love it, and are passionate about it. Which, you know, is also exactly the same population that is most likely to notice (or assume) misuse of that thing they love and come with preconceptions of. So this shouldn't really be a big surprise.

2. Of the 3 sample quote you brought, 2 weren't a complaint about the company making money, they were about the company being hypocritical (regardless for the moment whether it's true or not, or whether I agree or not, this was the complaint). When someone complains "If the purpose of the decisions was to make more money then why do they say it's to benefit us players instead of just admitting that it's to make more money" then it is very silly to say that the complainer has a problem with the company making money. They very clearly and explicitly did not complain about the company wanting to make money, they complained about the company lying (to some extent) about wanting to make money.
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chearns
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justrick wrote:
What do you think about "money grabs", "greedy publishers", "jumping the shark" when it comes to popular IPs? Do you agree with me that many gamers are unjustified in demonizing companies? Or do you think they are right in calling out publishers in this way?

I think most games are a waste of the Earth's precious abnd limited resources. I think people who collect games in a world where over 20000 people die from hunger every day have their priorities in the wrong place.

I don't live in the US. Once I'm done with school, I won't be working for a company. I'll either be working for the government or a non-profit, so no, I don't measure success by how much money is made, and I think doing so is dangerous for humanity.

I think getting people to buy products they don't need or that have built in obsolescence is abomination. It is terible for people on an individual level, it messes up our morality as a community, and it ravages the planet.

However, I tend to just ignore games that don't interest me.
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Bryan Thunkd
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justrick wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand these outcries. The whole reason companies exist is to make money. Why is that a bad thing?
The outcry is because they're doing it poorly. If you want to make money, the best way to do it is to make something really good that people want and will pay for.

It's not that uncommon for publishers in all sorts of industries (movies, video games, etc.) to make bad sequels knowing that the followup isn't particularly good but suspecting they'll sell well just off name recognition and the established fan base. That's what people object to!

We'd be happy to give publishers our money for a great game. And ideally that's what we want them to do... make great games that we'll buy. The company makes a profit and we get great games. Win-win.

Making a bad sequel is betraying your customers. Inevitably people are disappointed when they realize that not only is it not a very good game, but it was never intended to be.

So, yeah, publishers should make money. But they should do it by making good games. Making 'cash grab' games is a cheap and dirty way to take advantage of your customers.
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Simon Maynard
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chearns wrote:
I don't live in the US. Once I'm done with school, I won't be working for a company. I'll either be working for the government or a non-profit, so no, I don't measure success by how much money is made, and I think doing so is dangerous for humanity.

Yes, all those board games made by governments and other non-profit organisations are so much better, aren't they?
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When will people...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
...stop posting half subject lines for threads ?
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John Eldon
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I agree with you
You build up a company, devote all off your time and efforts towards making it successful and then people shout at you when you try to price it at a level that allows you to keep your house, feed the family etc.

All games only have a limited time were the quantity sold will earn a decent living for the manufacturer/designer.

In order to keep going all designers manufactures etc need to keep a fairly constant stream of new ideas, expansions etc flowing

If you have a successful game why would you not try to build on it's popularity with expansions and add ons.
The development costs are much lower, and you have a core market that will allow you to quickly generate more sales.

We all want a bargain, but we must realize that these companies have to make enough money to pay the staff, bills etc and enough capital to fund future projects
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Gianluca Casu
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chearns wrote:

I think most games are a waste of the Earth's precious abnd limited resources. I think people who collect games in a world where over 20000 people die from hunger every day have their priorities in the wrong place.



And you are here on BGG because?...

chearns wrote:


However, I tend to just ignore games that don't interest me.


Oh sure sorry, dumb from me not thinking about this.
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Mark T
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These little snowflakes that complain about "corporate greed" are probably the same folks that wonder why the economy is stagnant in the US.

I think there are a fair number of people out there (particularly in the U.S.) that have bought into the line that says that capitalism is evil while enjoying a lifestyle built almost exclusively upon the values and principles of capitalism. Without it you would have neither leisure time, disposable income nor diversity of product that allows us to pursue this (or any) hobby in the first place. (that's part of your point, I know)

So tell me again, poor, disillusioned gamer how the great, evil corporation that made all your favorite games is "just in it for the money". If that's such a bad thing, then don't buy their game. In fact, don't buy anything anymore, because, NEWSFLASH: even the companies that deal with your sewage and sell "basic necessities" like toilet paper are "in it for the money". If they weren't, you'd still be doing your business in a little shed with a crescent moon cut into the door and wiping with a page out of the Sears Roebuck catalog, but they're in it for the money too, so I guess it's back to leaves. Just remember, leaves of three, let it be.

One final thought: To all the folks that backed a KS project because of the creator's "passion", that's all well and good, but if the business plan behind that KS game is crap, then you'll be lucky to ever see a game much less a good one. And yes, even that creator, to one extent or another is in it "for the money". Otherwise he'd do it for free.
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Yaron Davidson
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Kyur wrote:
When will people...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
...stop posting half subject lines for threads ?

But it works. It gets more views from people who may have otherwise realized the thread doesn't interest them without having to spend their time and attention on it.

Why can't people realize that people who make threads want the attention to the subject of their thread? Without attention they won't make threads, and then there won't be any threads for any of us to read. Why all those complaints about click-baiting and wasting our time on threads that aren't relevant to us?
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K S
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chearns wrote:
I think people who collect games in a world where over 20000 people die from hunger every day have their priorities in the wrong place.

You do realize what forum this is, right?
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Yaron Davidson
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Snardo wrote:
So tell me again, poor, disillusioned gamer how the great, evil corporation that made all your favorite games is "just in it for the money". If that's such a bad thing, then don't buy their game.

You do realize that a fairly large percentage of the complaints are exactly people who won't buy the game, or who consider not buying the game, explaining why, right?

Not buying something sends a message, but it can be a very diluted message. Explaining why you didn't buy something makes the act of not buying something a lot more useful. "Don't buy their game" works much better with "and explain to them why".
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maf man
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justrick wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand these outcries. The whole reason companies exist is to make money.

because there are times where making money is prioritized far beyond everything else and the customers suffer greatly. Collectible games are usually in the cross-hairs with this because the company is usually trading the game's ability to give the full gaming experience to control supply and perceived value.
yes the hard workers should be rewarded for their efforts but we should pay them for giving us a great product rather than treating us like addicts that just need one more good hit of that sweet booster pack.
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Chapel
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justrick wrote:


Honestly, I don't understand these outcries.


I don't understand BGG'ers cultish obsession with publishers and designers to begin with.

I am a consumer. If I see a product I want to buy, I buy it, and if I can, at the lowest possible price I can find.

I am not in the business, so I really don't care what happens in the background.

I give them money, they give me games. That's it.

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Mark T
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chearns wrote:
I don't live in the US. Once I'm done with school, I won't be working for a company. I'll either be working for the government or a non-profit, so no, I don't measure success by how much money is made, and I think doing so is dangerous for humanity.


So you still admit that you will be working. And the goal of that work? Say it with me now kids: TO MAKE MONEY!

Regardless of what you do, unless you go off the grid and live a subsistence lifestyle, you will be earning money in order to buy the things you put a priority on. You may say those are necessities, but that's still a subjective statement of value. When you have money left over at the end of the month, will you throw it away? I suspect not, though I could be wrong.

As it stands though, I could argue that your desire to go into the gov't or non-profit sectors is actually harming more than it helps. If you're so worried about starving people, why not go start a farm? Government and non-profit sectors tend to be net consumers of resources rather than net-producers, so are you really helping people if you go into one of these areas?
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S. Turner
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More than anything, I think people are just tired of seeing their favorite IP tied to lousy games. Often, making a decent game is secondary to slapping the IP on the box.
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Nobody would accuse me of being hostile to private enterprise, but I don't see why people should have to take the business interests of the companies they deal with into account at all. Surely those businesses should look after their own private interests, the principals their personal interests, etc. If they don't, the market has an inbuilt mechanism to reallocate resources away from them. Individual consumers are entitled to focus on their own interests just as much or even more so than businesses.

Cashing in on licenses is cashing in on reputation, and reputation being a form of capital, it is a form of capital consumption. Let the practitioners beware.
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S. Turner
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MWChapel wrote:

I don't understand BGG'ers cultish obsession with publishers and designers to begin with.


I think some of this stems from crashes in other hobbies. They are afraid that the market will be diluted with crappy products and push even the companies that make good games out of business. The end result being fewer good games. I don't agree that the board game industry is the same as comic books, but I understand where they are coming from.
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Chapel
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sturner wrote:

I think some of this stems from crashes in other hobbies. They are afraid that the market will be diluted with crappy products and push even the companies that make good games out of business. The end result being fewer good games. I don't agree that the board game industry is the same as comic books, but I understand where they are coming from.


There has always been fewer "good" games. So there is more crap than usual. So what if it's diluted with a lot of crappy stuff? My advice, don't buy it if you don't like it. Buy the good ones.
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yarondav wrote:
Kyur wrote:
When will people...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
...stop posting half subject lines for threads ?

But it works.

Not in my case, as it kills any interest in me to read what the thread is actually about. Seriously, I only read your post because I saw you quoting me and now I'm outta here.

I hope the thread wasn't about an upcoming board game that features ►raptors shooting laser beams from their eyes, because I have been looking for that game for ages...
 
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Jeff Rietveld
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mtkokaly wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone knows a company needs to make money so I'm confused as to how you came about your assertion.

Probably from all the posts claiming greediness, money grabs, economic manipulation, etc.
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chearns wrote:
justrick wrote:
What do you think about "money grabs", "greedy publishers", "jumping the shark" when it comes to popular IPs? Do you agree with me that many gamers are unjustified in demonizing companies? Or do you think they are right in calling out publishers in this way?

I think most games are a waste of the Earth's precious abnd limited resources. I think people who collect games in a world where over 20000 people die from hunger every day have their priorities in the wrong place.

I don't live in the US. Once I'm done with school, I won't be working for a company. I'll either be working for the government or a non-profit, so no, I don't measure success by how much money is made, and I think doing so is dangerous for humanity.

I think getting people to buy products they don't need or that have built in obsolescence is abomination. It is terible for people on an individual level, it messes up our morality as a community, and it ravages the planet.



However, I tend to just ignore games that don't interest me.


I am sorry but I couldn't let this go. How do you think the government and non-profits are financed? Could it be by companies and people who work for companies? people who work for the government and non-profits still expect to be paid though some are run by volunteers.
The products we don't need include everything not needed for survival including the internet ,phones, cars , electricity etc
Morality is an odd thing you think its wrong for individuals to have board games in a world with people starving but feel fine to work for a government that could do something about it but don't.
All things come down to compromise between your ideals and the real world , it's just that the point of balance is different for everyone.
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Jeff Rietveld
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chearns wrote:
I don't live in the US. Once I'm done with school, I won't be working for a company. I'll either be working for the government or a non-profit, so no, I don't measure success by how much money is made, and I think doing so is dangerous for humanity.

I can assume you are aware where tax money comes from. Your ability to work at a non-profit or public service job relies entirely on other people being able to produce wealth.
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