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Subject: Saxony Underpass Clarification rss

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Alex Ronke
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Saxony's Underpass ability reads as the following:

Short version from Faction Mat:
Quote:
move between any mountain you control and any tunnel


Long version from Rules:
Quote:
For the purposes of Move actions for your character and mechs, mountains you control and all tunnels (including your Mine if you have one) are considered to be adjacent to each other.


Which of these interpretations is correct:
1) Character & Mech movement is permitted from a controlled Mountain to a Tunnel or Mine. Character & Mech movement is permitted from a Tunnel or Mine to a controlled Mountain. Character & Mech movement is not permitted directly between two controlled Mountains.

2) Character & Mech movement is permitted from a controlled Mountain to a Tunnel or Mine. Character & Mech movement is permitted from a Tunnel or Mine to a controlled Mountain. Character & Mech movement is permitted directly between two controlled Mountains.
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Benjamin Lindvall
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It is permitted, option 2.

Similarly, Rusviet's township lets you move between villages you control.
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Whoa, really? That's even stronger than I'd originally thought. Hoping for a verification from Jamie, as it feels like this could be very easily confused with what I believe is the usual assumed wording:
Quote:
For the purposes of Move actions for your character and mechs, mountains you control are considered to be adjacent to all tunnels (including your Mine if you have one) are considered to be adjacent to each other.

(And similarly for Township.)
 
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Greg
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Number 2.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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tankbard wrote:
Whoa, really? That's even stronger than I'd originally thought. Hoping for a verification from Jamie, as it feels like this could be very easily confused with what I believe is the usual assumed wording:
Quote:
For the purposes of Move actions for your character and mechs, mountains you control are considered to be adjacent to all tunnels (including your Mine if you have one) are considered to be adjacent to each other.
(And similarly for Township.)
Jamey has already verified this in other threads.
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Lori MacKenzie
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Jamey has already verified this in other threads.


Here it is: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23244371#23244371
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Philip Morton
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I wish the faction mats had reflected this a little better. As the usual explainer-of-rules in my play group, I don't like anything where a natural reading of the in-game components suggests the opposite of what the rules actually say....
 
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Bryan Cole
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Gaffercat wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Jamey has already verified this in other threads.


Here it is: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23244371#23244371


This was not quite the same thing. The issue here is whether the Saxony can move *directly* between mountains they control. If by direct, the OP is asking whether mountains become adjacent, I would say not.

My reading of the Underpass ability is that to move between two mountains, a mech would need two "movement points" (Mountain A->intermediate tunnel->Mountain B). They could do this if they have the Speed ability. However, if enemies controlled ALL other tunnels, they would be forced to select a tunnel to stop on to engage in combat (since combat interrupts movement).


Sorry, I'm mistaken. In fact the rules state this explicitly:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23244798#23244798

 
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Danny Perello
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bryancole1 wrote:
Gaffercat wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Jamey has already verified this in other threads.


Here it is: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23244371#23244371


This was not quite the same thing. The issue here is whether the Saxony can move *directly* between mountains they control. If by direct, the OP is asking whether mountains become adjacent, I would say not.

My reading of the Underpass ability is that to move between two mountains, a mech would need two "movement points" (Mountain A->intermediate tunnel->Mountain B). They could do this if they have the Speed ability. However, if enemies controlled ALL other tunnels, they would be forced to select a tunnel to stop on to engage in combat (since combat interrupts movement).

I think the linked thread does answer the question.

Quote:
Going mountain to mountain requires one other unit to control the destination mountain hex.


Controlled mountains are considered adjacent.
 
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Greg
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bryancole1 wrote:
Gaffercat wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:
Jamey has already verified this in other threads.


Here it is: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23244371#23244371


This was not quite the same thing. The issue here is whether the Saxony can move *directly* between mountains they control. If by direct, the OP is asking whether mountains become adjacent, I would say not.

My reading of the Underpass ability is that to move between two mountains, a mech would need two "movement points" (Mountain A->intermediate tunnel->Mountain B). They could do this if they have the Speed ability. However, if enemies controlled ALL other tunnels, they would be forced to select a tunnel to stop on to engage in combat (since combat interrupts movement).


You can start your turn with one of your mechs on a mountain and use one movement to move to another mountain that you control. Or, if you are not starting out on a mountain and you have Speed, you can move one space onto a mountain, and then move again to another mountain you control. Not that complicated.
 
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Greg
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Chrondeath wrote:
I wish the faction mats had reflected this a little better. As the usual explainer-of-rules in my play group, I don't like anything where a natural reading of the in-game components suggests the opposite of what the rules actually say....


How is it opposite?

It says "move between any mountain you control and any tunnel"

You can move from any mountain you control to another mountain you control or any mountain you control to any tunnel, or any tunnel to any mountain you control.

There's only so much room in that space under the mech, so they can't go into lengthy detail. The owner/teacher of the game should be familiar with the rulebook before teaching it and not rely on the shorthand reminders on player components to say everything. In this case, after explaining the rules, it is a good idea to go over the faction boards for each player to explain their ability and 2 unique mech abilities. It's not that difficult to tell the Saxony player that when they unlock the Tunnel ability, that their mechs and character can move from any mountain they control to another mountain they control or any tunnel, and any tunnel to any mountain they control.
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Philip Morton
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Hahma wrote:
How is it opposite?

It says "move between any mountain you control and any tunnel"

You can move from any mountain you control to another mountain you control

Moving from one mountain you control to another mountain you control is not "moving between a mountain you control and a tunnel."

Quote:
There's only so much room in that space under the mech, so they can't go into lengthy detail. The owner/teacher of the game should be familiar with the rulebook before teaching it and not rely on the shorthand reminders on player components to say everything. In this case, after explaining the rules, it is a good idea to go over the faction boards for each player to explain their ability and 2 unique mech abilities. It's not that difficult to tell the Saxony player that when they unlock the Tunnel ability, that their mechs and character can move from any mountain they control to another mountain they control or any tunnel, and any tunnel to any mountain they control.

The more edge cases there are, the more likely I'll forget which ones I've already covered while going over the rules. Just the base set of rules has been taking me an enormous amount of time to cover.

Off the top of my head, other things I've missed during the initial explanation:
Russviet's ability applying to the factory card
Unwinding movement if the sixth star is placed after the first combat of a multi-combat move
Buildings granting "weak" control of hexes
Resolution of recruit bonuses when an action places the sixth star

I've also had cases where I know I DID explain a component-contradicting thing like this, but somebody wasn't paying attention, or didn't realize I was talking specifically to them about their mat, or somebody else had that mat during the first game when the full explanation took place.
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Greg
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Chrondeath wrote:
Hahma wrote:
How is it opposite?

It says "move between any mountain you control and any tunnel"

You can move from any mountain you control to another mountain you control

Moving from one mountain you control to another mountain you control is not "moving between a mountain you control and a tunnel."

Quote:
There's only so much room in that space under the mech, so they can't go into lengthy detail. The owner/teacher of the game should be familiar with the rulebook before teaching it and not rely on the shorthand reminders on player components to say everything. In this case, after explaining the rules, it is a good idea to go over the faction boards for each player to explain their ability and 2 unique mech abilities. It's not that difficult to tell the Saxony player that when they unlock the Tunnel ability, that their mechs and character can move from any mountain they control to another mountain they control or any tunnel, and any tunnel to any mountain they control.

The more edge cases there are, the more likely I'll forget which ones I've already covered while going over the rules. Just the base set of rules has been taking me an enormous amount of time to cover.

Off the top of my head, other things I've missed during the initial explanation:
Russviet's ability applying to the factory card
Unwinding movement if the sixth star is placed after the first combat of a multi-combat move
Buildings granting "weak" control of hexes
Resolution of recruit bonuses when an action places the sixth star

I've also had cases where I know I DID explain a component-contradicting thing like this, but somebody wasn't paying attention, or didn't realize I was talking specifically to them about their mat, or somebody else had that mat during the first game when the full explanation took place.


Again, there's not enough room on the space under the mech to give comprehensive rules.

If people don't pay attention when the rules are explained, then that's their fault. If they complain after the game about not realizing an aspect of the game, you can simply say that you told him/her the rules. Also, as a first game, some mistakes can forgiven by players, unless they are tools.
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Lutz Pietschker
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Hahma wrote:
Also, as a first game, some mistakes can forgiven by players, unless they are tools.

Which is also something the rules recommend explicitly
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Jarad Bond
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Scythe has the best rulebook of any game that I've ever seen, hands down. The rules aren't hugely complex, but I have still been able to quickly find and clarify every rule that I have ever had a question about. That said, I agree that the icon explicitly shows arrows from mountains to tunnels and tunnels to mountains, not mountains to mountains.

This one came as a genuine surprise... and I'm sure the rulebook clarifies it, but this was one place where I didn't think I needed clarification. The iconography is so good in Scythe, that it just didn't occur to me to question this one.
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Sebastian Riechmann
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I did ask myself the same question stated here. Because the ability of the Saxony and Rusviet faction is quite similar. Despite the Rusviet faction having a much clearer explanation and example than Saxony has. Albeit it looks like a comparable ability, so why not take that into account and handle it like the township ability?!

Although I would have hoped that is was stated a little bit more clearly for the Saxony faction.
 
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