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Frostgrave» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Strategy verse luck rss

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Yosef Bender

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I have played several games of Frostgrave And the other night I completely wiped out the other players team After I got over the initial elation of profoundly winning a game I realized it had everything to do with luck and nothing to do with my strategy skills. it was all about my amazingly "rare" good luck, it was the other guys equaly bad rolls (luck) that made it even more dramatic . This kind of saddened me because I want the game to be more strategic based so when you win its because you employ a better strategy not just blind luck .

I know the purists amongst us will scream at any rule change but for Us that love the game but would like it to be more strategy based I would like to hear discussion and ideas here's mine.

rules added to the roll for flanking, and rear attacks would help bring more strategic balance to the game,

In my rules set published in files I have rules for Capt. orders that gives some strategic benefits rules

think of it 1 0r 2 plus is only 5% or 10% change on a 20 sided dice. For example an assisted combat game +2 but if a third combat was fighting against a soldier it would be more realistically to be a +4 for the third making a +6 against the combat. standard rules 20% increase 3 against 1 house rules 35% increace 3 against 1. And even that's not realistic if we were to look at the physics in a 3 to 1 real fight.

I've also got a bizarre idea I at least want to try for one game, where each player get three decks of cards numbered 1 through 20, the 60 card deck are shuffled and each player gets from their deck seven cards, they can look at their hand and play any card which replaces the rolls once played discard then replace the discarded card from the reamining deck this would even out rolls and allow a player to initiate a battle plan with some high cards, and throwing away low cards on secondary actions

I'm sure other players like me have come up with several ideas that bring more strategy into the game and less Blind luck looking to hear your ideas
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Nevin Ball
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I STILL haven't played it yet but it seems like it can be swingy because of the d20 combat system. It seems like the game needs dense terrain to mitigate it.
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yeah? well… y’know, that’s just like, uh… your opinion, man…
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We play this for some time now, and I love many of the concepts. Nonetheless the swingyness is starting us to put off sincerely.

When adressed in the usual forums, the OPs are almost immediately answered with "try it more", "I like it that way" or "don't expect strategic". Completely missing the point that the OPs WANT to discuss rule change approaches. Thus I never dared to post

I expect a much better tinkering culture here on BGG so I immediately subscribed your post.

We personally will try some other dice concepts next time. D6s, d10s, and a bunch of attack/defence dice. I'll report.
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Kristabelle Du Bast
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I have read on a forum somewhere that instead of a d20 some people are rolling two d10's plus a d20. The d20 is only read when it is 1 with the score othetwise being determined by the 2d10 which levels the swingyness. I can try to find the reference later, maybe TMP.
 
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Yosef Bender

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Yes I remember reading a guy who change the dice to hero scape concept but basically you had to rework the entire rule set. I made a set of dice and tried it out but it made a much slower game as the Wounds would be less.

I'm trying to figure out how to keep the basic stats of the game intact But just add bonuses based on strategy that would overcome the Dramatic swing of the D 20

I also really like the single roll that immediately calculates wounds, and the fact that a war band member can die in a single combat is much more realistic, so these are the Benefits I don't want to lose in this game. so I want to keep the d20

For example if I'm shooting at a war band member who has his back to me and is 20 feet away 4" Away Picking up treasure I have no more advantage than shooting someone across the board at maximum distance who is sprinting between rough terrain.

Here's one strategy change in my rule set that's been modified up. 1 is only 5% which doesn't make much change on a d20 on a six sided dice one represents a 17% change which is too dramatic, 2 mod on d20 is a 10% change which when it stacks with other modifiers it can be significant. I still like low modifiers for magic weapons but for strategy the modifiers should be higher to overcome the unrealistic swing of 2 D20s rolls.

Surprised Fight bonuses + 4 to fight
When one model attacks another model there is a + 2 to attacker's fight on a charge attack,(the charge giving him the bonus) unless the model attacked is surprised. Then they gain a +4 to their fight
These are the surprise conditions:
*Attacker jumped down from a height to target model( up to 3")
*Attacker was invisible or hiding prior to the attack.
*Attacker attacked from behind on a model already engaged normally a +2 support when two models are fighting one model, but If second model attacks from behind while model is already engaged +4 instead of a +2
*If models when they within 1" were not in not in line of sight prior to the attack , for example attacking from around a corner to a model that cannot see his opponent.
*Model that is being attacked was a target of a successful spell by opposing spell caster in the wizard or apprentice phase. The spell causes some kind of damage even if armor protected him from receiving damage. He is considered shaken and thus supersized to have to engage in combat
 
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Yosef Bender

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Most of my game boards have dense terrain, but it also has lots of towers so archers get the advantage of height for line of sight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT42D0IZDDw with the modifiers there is lots of suprize attacks
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Joseph McCullough
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The d20 is not going to be for everyone, and everyone likes a different level of randomness versus skill (we all like some randomness or we wouldn't use dice). I like a high degree of chance in my games, thus I wrote Frostgrave that way. I wouldn't say it is all luck, by any means, but sometimes the dice will beat you.

All of that said, I am a HUGE fan of house rules. Every player or group should modify the game to their heart's content to make it more fun for them. Fun is the ultimate goal here.

Personally, I like seeing discussion of alternate rules/methods. It gives me ideas and might even help me improve my own game development.

I have seen several threads with people talking about changing the dice. Some people talked about using 3d6. I don't actually think that work well as too many of your combats would end up with little damage dealt. I am less clear on how 2d10 would work, and I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who has tried it.
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Marc Nelson Jr.
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yosefbender wrote:
For example if I'm shooting at a war band member who has his back to me and is 20 feet away 4" Away Picking up treasure I have no more advantage than shooting someone across the board at maximum distance who is sprinting between rough terrain.


In the first example, a figure carrying treasure gets a -1 modifier to their Fight.

In the second example, you should rarely have a clear shot at a target at maximum distance across the board. Let's assume two pieces of intervening terrain and light cover - that's a +4 modifier to the target.

So you do have a significant advantage when shooting at the first target: +5 advantage.
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Stephen Foulk
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I sort of owe the author an apology... Why? Well after only a couple of practice games I decided that the d20 was too random and the differences between types' fight scores didn't have enough differential. So being a fairly hard-core wargamer I fiddled about for a month or so changing the stats and the dice.

Over the weekend I returned to the game as it is written as a sort of baseline for my fiddling and discovered (drum roll or face palm as you see fit) the game actually played great with the d20.

Sometimes the combats became epic struggles and sometimes they were over on a heartbeat and it felt cinematic.

Of course I'm still fiddling - not alloweng the defender to add their fight if SHOT from behind, wondering if there should be some embargo of non-wizards attacking wizards (opposing wizard becoming a pain? Leave your apprentice at home and take 10 crossbowmen on an assassination run).

As far as the d20 goes though, consider me a convert.

p.s. I did try 2d10 but generally they did less damage... Which is obvious if you think about it as the average was working out around 10 making it much harder to get the high numbers needed for serious damage.
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Joseph McCullough
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No offence taken!

I think the combat mechanism catches a lot of people off guard. The greater number of potential results allows one opposed die role for combat instead of the 2 or 3 die rolls used by a lot of systems. Thus combat outcomes tends to look sudden and completely random. In truth, the actual percentage chances of x killing y are pretty similar to other games, it just happens quicker.

Still some systems just don't work for some people.
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Yosef Bender

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Joseph, I think the D20 Doing both hit and damage was brilliant!. I also think a thief with a dagger should be able to take down a mighty warrior in a single blow. But what I want are rules that allow for Well-placed strategy To give a significant enough advantage That player with better strategy and planning will win more than Be a result of dice rolls.

Here's where I think the rules should be reconsidered, during the group move action three fighters approach a single fighter In a opposing war band, instead of all three attacking one at a time getting the +4 bonus,(Which would be What would happen in reality) the first one has to attack, no bonus, second one has to attack, +2 bonus, third one has to attack +4 bonus if the other two are still alive that is. Would it not make more sense for the rules to allow all three models in face-to-face contact A a +4 for advantage And actually I think even this is too modest a mere 20% bonus for three against one.
Here are some house rules to help Add more strategy percentage to the dice roll:

When one model attacks another model there is a + 1 to the attacker fight stat (Giving the attacker A 5% advantage for charging) on a charge Attack Which is a move engage attack. ( Again, it should probably should be +2) Once engaged This bonus is no longer applicable, I'm considering play testing the attacker Always gets +1 whenever he attacks, and A +2 when charging.

I also have a house rule called a Surprised Fight bonuses a + 4 to fight Under these certain attack conditions.

These are the surprise conditions Giving the Attacker surprising an additional 20% advantage.

1. Attacker jumped down from a height to Model attacking

2. Attacker was invisible or hiding prior Prior to the attack .

3. Attacker attacked from behind on a model already engaged normally a +2 support when two models are fighting one model, but If second model attacks from behind while model is already engaged +4 To his attack instead of a +2

4. If models touch base were not in not in line of sight prior to the attack ,for example: attacking from around a corner to a model that cannot see him. The attacking model can be no more than 2 inches away when they are seen to qualify for a surprise attack.

5.Model that is being attacked was a target of a successful spell by opposing spell caster in the wizard or apprentice phase. The spell causes some kind of damage even if armor protected him from receiving damage. He is considered shaken And vulnerable to surprise attack in less he is locked in combat.





 
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Joseph McCullough
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Yosef,

I think those are some interesting rules, and I can see why some people might want to apply them to their games. However, at the same time, I think the rules add a level of complexity that not everyone will want.

I wrote the game with a level of complexity, and randomness that I enjoy in my games. I think that is the only way I can be honest while working on a game. Of course, most people aren't going to have the exact same views as I do, and that is why house rules are so valuable. It's really about fine-tuning a game to make it even better for you and your gaming group.
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Yosef Bender

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Joseph Thanks for your feedback, playability and realism are always an equation you have to balance in game design, if it becomes encumbered with too many complex modifiers that simulate better realism it becomes harder and longer And you lose in the playability factor.

I guess the randomness attracts many people otherwise gambling would not be so enjoyable to so many.

I'll keep pushing forward in trying to find that balance where good strategy wins more often than not, without making it to encumbered

And I'm in agreement with you that making house rules that bring in the flavors you want is what makes gaming so enjoyable, at least to me, strict rule lawyers have never been my cup of tea.
 
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