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Subject: I've never taken a coin (used the gain action)... rss

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John Buffington
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Malvern
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or seen that action used in 3 games (2,3,4 players).

Am I missing something, or is it just a "oh no, it's all gone wrong" action?
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I also figure it's the weakest of the available actions. The only case I could make for it is if you want the corresponding bottom row action and don't want to move for whatever reason, you might as well get a couple extra points out of it.
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Dave Moser
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Escondido
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Similar feeling here. 6 plays in at various player counts, and I don't think I've seen anyone take cash instead of Moving.
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mfl134
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one factory card let's you take 3 coins for a military card (though of course you get to double move as well).

2 coins for nothing could probably be solid. if it is only 1 coin, I'd say it is a last resort or a result of previous inefficiencies in planning.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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mfl134 wrote:
I'd say it is a last resort or a result of previous inefficiencies in planning.


Michael is exactly correct. It is possible to run out of coins and not be able to take any action on your turn (if you previously took the "Move" action), so we added the "Gain $1" action to help players get out of that rare situation.
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mfl134
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jameystegmaier wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
I'd say it is a last resort or a result of previous inefficiencies in planning.


Michael is exactly correct. It is possible to run out of coins and not be able to take any action on your turn (if you previously took the "Move" action), so we added the "Gain $1" action to help players get out of that rare situation.


in playtesting did you see much use of the upgrading the coin action and using it often to get extra points while turtling, after building up the resources for the bottom row action?
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Drew Lawson
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It can be a decent choice if you're playing the Mechanical mat. If you're playing Crimeans and the Mechanical mat, it can be a really good choice. With a single upgrade, you get an action that can produce four VPs at the cost of two resources (or, even better: a single resource and a combat card with the Crimeans).

For comparison, even the top popularity track only awards 3 VP for 2 resources, and you have to hold those resources on the board where they can be stolen.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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We saw it used very rarely. I suppose it could be a strategic choice later in the game. I like Drew's idea.
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Jeff Watts
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I've had 4 games so far and I don't believe anyone's taken the coin action.

The lack of use argues that the reward should probably be higher. Maybe $2 [$3].
 
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We used it in a two player game. (Game 4)

Saxony and dark engineering board in a two player game, that player quickly went to 8 workers and then couldn't afford to produce so had to take the move / take money action to get her economy going again. needless to say i won 106 to 48 as there were several non optimal turns.

Without money you can't do most of the top actions i can see it as a get out of jail / o 'sheet' action / option when things go wrong.

If started at 2 coins it may well be used more i imagine.
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sacha cauvin
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I had to use it twice in my last game early on.

I had no coins...
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general hoth wrote:
I had to use it twice in my last game early on.

I had no coins...


Did you go to 8 workers too quickly? Or how did you run out of money?
 
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Quote:
If started at 2 coins it may well be used more i imagine.

Or maybe even [Move] ([Move]/[Coin]) ([Upgradeable Move]/[Upgradeable Coin])? The problem with allowing 3 coin for free is that Rusviet can get a flat score of 60 + x for doing nothing, which is admittedly low against experienced players but somewhat viable in highly contested games or games with newbies.
 
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Greg
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There are similar mechanics in other games, such as Above and Below for example that have an action called Labor, where you get a coin. If you are first to use it that round, you get a cider token in addition. But often it's there just in case you can't do other actions, or are desperate for a coin.

Something similar in Kings of Air and Steam. Basically something that isn't really used much, but there just in case.
 
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Benjamin Lindvall
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I had a player need to use it a couple times after going first, producing all 8 workers very fast, and spending money at an encounter card. He both popularity and money locked himself. It took him most of the rest of the game to get going again. He finished last by a large margin.
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mfl134
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jeffjwatts wrote:
I've had 4 games so far and I don't believe anyone's taken the coin action.

The lack of use argues that the reward should probably be higher. Maybe $2 [$3].


Well, it shouldn't be higher if it was meant as a last resort. (Meaning it was always intended to be weaker)
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Michael is correct. It's not intended as a primary action at all--it's a last resort if you run out of coins for taking other actions.
 
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mfl134
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jameystegmaier wrote:
Michael is correct. It's not intended as a primary action at all--it's a last resort if you run out of coins for taking other actions.


Out of curiosity, if it was meant to be a last resort, why make it an upgrade-able action?

Did you try placing the upgrade elsewhere and it just ended up overpowered no matter where you put it (other than as an extra coin)?
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Klaus Kristiansen
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Kongens Lyngby
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In my second game, which I played yesterday, we actually entirely forgot this option. One player wanted to use the bottom action, considered if he wanted to move, and ended up not using the top action at all. No one reminded him of the option to take a coin.
 
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Ian Liddle
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mfl134 wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
Michael is correct. It's not intended as a primary action at all--it's a last resort if you run out of coins for taking other actions.


Out of curiosity, if it was meant to be a last resort, why make it an upgrade-able action?

Did you try placing the upgrade elsewhere and it just ended up overpowered no matter where you put it (other than as an extra coin)?

There are other places that could have had upgrade slots, but it would make the action mats less elegant if the bottom-row had them.

So it's the unambiguous last upgrade cube; you get a star, something gets cheaper, and an action you'd never take unless absolutely necessary becomes one you probably won't take. Sounds fair.
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Alex G
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I can see the situation where bottom row under "move/gain" is a part of your engine, but you don't want to waste top row making pointless moves, so you can just gain a few coins.
 
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mark van der werf
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mfl134 wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
Michael is correct. It's not intended as a primary action at all--it's a last resort if you run out of coins for taking other actions.


Out of curiosity, if it was meant to be a last resort, why make it an upgrade-able action?

Did you try placing the upgrade elsewhere and it just ended up overpowered no matter where you put it (other than as an extra coin)?


I also wonder about this, it feels like really weird design.

In general I feel the boards force you to play out a certain way too much. Trade is a nice early game action but the bottom row action underneath it always sucks so the game pretty much pushes you in the direction of using move produce and bolster for power or cards (depending which you upgrade) only. Game could have been much deeper I feel if those actions were more closely balanced.
 
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Greg
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Markwerf wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
Michael is correct. It's not intended as a primary action at all--it's a last resort if you run out of coins for taking other actions.


Out of curiosity, if it was meant to be a last resort, why make it an upgrade-able action?

Did you try placing the upgrade elsewhere and it just ended up overpowered no matter where you put it (other than as an extra coin)?


I also wonder about this, it feels like really weird design.

In general I feel the boards force you to play out a certain way too much. Trade is a nice early game action but the bottom row action underneath it always sucks so the game pretty much pushes you in the direction of using move produce and bolster for power or cards (depending which you upgrade) only. Game could have been much deeper I feel if those actions were more closely balanced.


The boards don't force you to do anything. People can certainly win when using the bottom row action for trade that gives them no coins.
 
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Philip Morton
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Hahma wrote:
The boards don't force you to do anything. People can certainly win when using the bottom row action for trade that gives them no coins.

I'd like to see an example of a game where the winner used Trade's bottom-row action enough to get the star from it (where the losers followed the coin-actions and still lost). I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm actually interested to know what situations (if any) make it a good choice so I can recognize them and incorporate them into my own strategies. Is it a case where your home territories are telling you to produce the resources for Trade's action, and it's easier to roll with that than to get out? Upgrading Trade and spamming popularity? Some situation where you ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE all four things from that action type ("my other objective card was worse")?
 
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Greg
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Chrondeath wrote:
Hahma wrote:
The boards don't force you to do anything. People can certainly win when using the bottom row action for trade that gives them no coins.

I'd like to see an example of a game where the winner used Trade's bottom-row action enough to get the star from it (where the losers followed the coin-actions and still lost). I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm actually interested to know what situations (if any) make it a good choice so I can recognize them and incorporate them into my own strategies. Is it a case where your home territories are telling you to produce the resources for Trade's action, and it's easier to roll with that than to get out? Upgrading Trade and spamming popularity? Some situation where you ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE all four things from that action type ("my other objective card was worse")?


Well I certainly haven't kept track of that in my 10 games, so I couldn't comment on that. My comment wasn't based on someone using the bottom row action under trade to get a star, but that the action could be used during a game and the player can still win. To say that you can't use it and still win is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course, maybe I don't play with a bunch of super computers that instantly optimize every turn, but I'd rather play with regular people.
 
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