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Subject: Basic questions: Crippled sections, LP vs. RN? rss

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Marco
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Hello,

The rules (German ones at least) are unclear when exactly a ship is to be considered crippled in a section: Is it crippled when the marker is at the foremost circle or below? The rules suggest the former, but then it wouldn't make sense to have to pay 2 gold for repairs while the upgrade cost printed on the player mat is 1. This had me think and assume that a section is not crippled at the first circle but only when the marker would have to be moved to the left of it. Is this correct?

A second issue: How exactly are fights involving both the LP and the RN and one or more players resolved? The related postings I found weren't sufficiently clear to me. So who fights whom in what order?
 
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Mik Svellov
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curio77 wrote:
The rules (German ones at least) are unclear when exactly a ship is to be considered crippled in a section: Is it crippled when the marker is at the foremost circle or below? The rules suggest the former, but then it wouldn't make sense to have to pay 2 gold for repairs while the upgrade cost printed on the player mat is 1. This had me think and assume that a section is not crippled at the first circle but only when the marker would have to be moved to the left of it. Is this correct?

From the German rules, page 7:

"Erzwungener Rückzug
Wenn ein Schiff in einem Bereich so viel Schaden nimmt, dass der Stärkering auf die niedrigste Stufe sinkt, kann das Schiff nicht weiter kämpfen und ist zerstört. Der Spieler muss sein Schiff sofort in die Piratenbucht stellen.
"

In other words: The ship is crippled when a Strength markers is moved OFF the lowest level of a section.


Quote:
A second issue: How exactly are fights involving both the LP and the RN and one or more players resolved? The related postings I found weren't sufficiently clear to me. So who fights whom in what order?


Several rules are needed for this situation, all from pages 13 and 14:

"Die Royal Navy
...
Falls mehr als ein Schiff bei einer Insel steht, wenn die Royal Navy hinzukommt, müssen die Spieler zuerst gegen die Royal Navy kämpfen oder fliehen, bevor die Kämpfe gegeneinander stattfinden können.
...
Sie können die Royal Navy nicht zu der Insel schicken, bei der Ihr eigenes Schiff steht.
...
Die Royal Navy flieht niemals vor einem Kampf und attackiert Schwarze Piratenschiffe nicht.

In other words: RN will never fight LP's.

Der Kampf eines Schwarzen Piraten gegen mehrere Spieler
Bevor die Spieler gegeneinander kämpfen können, muss zunächst das Schwarze Piratenschiff bekämpft werden. Jedes Schiff – einschließlich dem Schwarzen Piratenschiff – schießt in jeder Kampfrunde einmal. Das schnellste Schiff beginnt, danach sind die übrigen entsprechend ihrer Geschwindigkeit an der Reihe. Der Schwarze Pirat schießt auf den Spieler zuerst, dessen Schiff in dem Bereich am besten ausgestattet ist, welcher auf der entsprechenden Piratenkarte angegeben ist. Sein nächster Schuss zielt dann auf denjenigen Spieler, der in diesem Bereich am zweitstärksten ist, und so weiter, bis er auf alle verbliebenen Spieler geschossen hat.


RN and LP's will fight in order of their speed and fight other player's in order of their speed.
 
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Marco
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Great Dane wrote:
curio77 wrote:
The rules (German ones at least) are unclear when exactly a ship is to be considered crippled in a section: Is it crippled when the marker is at the foremost circle or below? The rules suggest the former, but then it wouldn't make sense to have to pay 2 gold for repairs while the upgrade cost printed on the player mat is 1. This had me think and assume that a section is not crippled at the first circle but only when the marker would have to be moved to the left of it. Is this correct?

From the German rules, page 7:

"Erzwungener Rückzug
Wenn ein Schiff in einem Bereich so viel Schaden nimmt, dass der Stärkering auf die niedrigste Stufe sinkt, kann das Schiff nicht weiter kämpfen und ist zerstört. Der Spieler muss sein Schiff sofort in die Piratenbucht stellen.
"

In other words: The ship is crippled when a Strength markers is moved OFF the lowest level of a section.


Well, exactly the "off" aspect isn't clear by that wording (It says "[if] the ring drops to the lowest level", but what exactly is that level? Common sense would suggest it's the lowest printed value.). Thanks for clearing this up.

Quote:
Quote:
A second issue: How exactly are fights involving both the LP and the RN and one or more players resolved? The related postings I found weren't sufficiently clear to me. So who fights whom in what order?


Several rules are needed for this situation, all from pages 13 and 14:

"Die Royal Navy
...
Falls mehr als ein Schiff bei einer Insel steht, wenn die Royal Navy hinzukommt, müssen die Spieler zuerst gegen die Royal Navy kämpfen oder fliehen, bevor die Kämpfe gegeneinander stattfinden können.
...
Sie können die Royal Navy nicht zu der Insel schicken, bei der Ihr eigenes Schiff steht.
...
Die Royal Navy flieht niemals vor einem Kampf und attackiert Schwarze Piratenschiffe nicht.

In other words: RN will never fight LP's.

Der Kampf eines Schwarzen Piraten gegen mehrere Spieler
Bevor die Spieler gegeneinander kämpfen können, muss zunächst das Schwarze Piratenschiff bekämpft werden. Jedes Schiff – einschließlich dem Schwarzen Piratenschiff – schießt in jeder Kampfrunde einmal. Das schnellste Schiff beginnt, danach sind die übrigen entsprechend ihrer Geschwindigkeit an der Reihe. Der Schwarze Pirat schießt auf den Spieler zuerst, dessen Schiff in dem Bereich am besten ausgestattet ist, welcher auf der entsprechenden Piratenkarte angegeben ist. Sein nächster Schuss zielt dann auf denjenigen Spieler, der in diesem Bereich am zweitstärksten ist, und so weiter, bis er auf alle verbliebenen Spieler geschossen hat.


RN and LP's will fight in order of their speed and fight other player's in order of their speed.


OK -- without the clarification, the rules somehow had me assume that the fight of the players against the RN would precede the other fights.

Speaking about this particular section of the rules, however, there's another apparent contradiction: They state (translating from the German rules): "Each ship -- including the black pirate ship -- fires once per round of combat." And further down: "...the [black pirate ship's] second shot aims at that player who is second-strongest in this section, and so on, until he has shot at all remaining players. After the first round of combat, the new order is once again based on the values in this section of the ship." So it is on the one hand stated that an LP fires once per round (just as any other pirate), but then the rules suggest that the LP aims at each of the players, in order, until the next round of combat starts. Now which of these statements is correct? I assume the first -- if so, is it correct to summarize this by saying that LPs, when firing once per round, always aim at the player with the highest value in the LP's respective section?
 
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Mik Svellov
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curio77 wrote:
Well, exactly the "off" aspect isn't clear by that wording (It says "[if] the ring drops to the lowest level", but what exactly is that level? Common sense would suggest it's the lowest printed value.). Thanks for clearing this up.

Of course the 'lowest level' is the lowest printed value.
How do you manage to play any game if you split hairs like that?

Which of these numbers are lowest? 1 - 2 - 3
There isn't any number lower than "1".

Quote:
Speaking about this particular section of the rules, however, there's another apparent contradiction: They state (translating from the German rules): "Each ship -- including the black pirate ship -- fires once per round of combat." And further down: "...the [black pirate ship's] second shot aims at that player who is second-strongest in this section, and so on, until he has shot at all remaining players. After the first round of combat, the new order is once again based on the values in this section of the ship." So it is on the one hand stated that an LP fires once per round (just as any other pirate), but then the rules suggest that the LP aims at each of the players, in order, until the next round of combat starts. Now which of these statements is correct? I assume the first -- if so, is it correct to summarize this by saying that LPs, when firing once per round, always aim at the player with the highest value in the LP's respective section?

No contradiction.
Each ship fires a single short per combar round.
During the first round will the LP shoot against one player,
during the second round against another player,
then the third player and so forth.

And yes, he will go after the one who is stongest (in that section) first. In the second combat round will he go after the player who is second-strongest in that section etc.
 
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Marco
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Great Dane wrote:
curio77 wrote:
Well, exactly the "off" aspect isn't clear by that wording (It says "[if] the ring drops to the lowest level", but what exactly is that level? Common sense would suggest it's the lowest printed value.). Thanks for clearing this up.

Of course the 'lowest level' is the lowest printed value.


But you said that a ship "is crippled when a Strength markers is moved OFF the lowest level of a section" while the quoted portion of the rules says it's crippled "if the ring drops to the lowest level". In fact, the rules all but suggest that a ring can be moved off the scale towards the left at all, which your clarification said is however meant.

Quote:
How do you manage to play any game if you split hairs like that?


I'm not splitting hairs, I'm just irritated by a confusing wording, and I've played a lot of far more complex games without scratching my head about the rules, at least inasmuch as basic aspects are concerned.

The difference in this case is obviously quite significant, since per my original interpretation, ships would be destroyed one hit earlier than per yours.

Quote:
Which of these numbers are lowest? 1 - 2 - 3
There isn't any number lower than "1".


Oh, come on, if you had thoroughly read what I've written, you'd have realized that I'm not having difficulties with comparing numbers but with the question whether "crippled" means "at foremost circle" or "off foremost circle", which the German rules objectively ain't clear about. If you're not willing to take the questions of others who are new to a given game seriously and accept that rules may be unclear to them (for whatever reason), just ignore their postings and refrain from replying instead of resorting to arrogance. In fact, it's very generous of you to extensively quote the rules, but owning the game, I've got them right in front of me and have indeed read them thoroughly prior to asking questions -- that's what my questions resulted from. Thanks nevertheless.

Quote:
Quote:
Speaking about this particular section of the rules, however, there's another apparent contradiction: They state (translating from the German rules): "Each ship -- including the black pirate ship -- fires once per round of combat." And further down: "...the [black pirate ship's] second shot aims at that player who is second-strongest in this section, and so on, until he has shot at all remaining players. After the first round of combat, the new order is once again based on the values in this section of the ship." So it is on the one hand stated that an LP fires once per round (just as any other pirate), but then the rules suggest that the LP aims at each of the players, in order, until the next round of combat starts. Now which of these statements is correct? I assume the first -- if so, is it correct to summarize this by saying that LPs, when firing once per round, always aim at the player with the highest value in the LP's respective section?

No contradiction.
Each ship fires a single short per combar round.
During the first round will the LP shoot against one player,
during the second round against another player,
then the third player and so forth.

And yes, he will go after the one who is stongest (in that section) first. In the second combat round will he go after the player who is second-strongest in that section etc.


Even if the second-strongest player WRT the LP's section is the same as the previously-strongest player due to the pirate's hit?
 
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Werner Bär
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curio77 wrote:
Is it crippled when the marker is at the foremost circle or below?

I fail to see where the rules are unclear. devil

The rules in the german Days of Wonder version clearly state that it is crippled when it is moved to the foremost circle.

The rules in the german Amigo version clearly state that it is crippled when it is moved off the lowest circle.

However, this is a big change in gameplay, and a major increase in the luck factor. So the game explainers at the Days of Wonder boot in Essen decided to explain it like it was in the amigo version. They believed the change was an oversight, not intended.

So best try out both versions, and then use the one you think is superior.
 
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Marco
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Werbaer wrote:
curio77 wrote:
Is it crippled when the marker is at the foremost circle or below?

I fail to see where the rules are unclear. devil

The rules in the german Days of Wonder version clearly state that it is crippled when it is moved to the foremost circle.

The rules in the german Amigo version clearly state that it is crippled when it is moved off the lowest circle.


Alright, so I guess it's this difference in between editions which got me confused. I probably should read only either the rules or BGG postings, but not both, at least for games that have been re-released. I also probably should have stated in my original posting that I'm talking about the DoW version. Thanks Werner.

Still, if "crippled" means "foremost circle" with the DoW edition, why does it cost 2 gold to restore a section if the printed upgrade cost from first to second circle is 1 in all sections?
 
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Mik Svellov
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I can see that I have unfortunately contributed to the confusion.
I didn't pay enough attention to the German rules, which I even took the time to quote.

Since the game is designed in USA and published by a non-German (US/French) publisher do I believe it is fair to assume that they have made a translation error in the German rules. Quite possibly under influence from the Amigo rules, which of course has nothing to do with the current version as several changes have been made.

Sufficient to say that the correct rules nn English can be downloaded from the DoW: http://static.piratescovegame.com/lang/english/images/pc_rul...

and that they state that your ship is crippled when the ring is moved OFF the lowest circle.
 
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Marco
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Great Dane wrote:
I can see that I have unfortunately contributed to the confusion.
I didn't pay enough attention to the German rules, which I even took the time to quote.


OK, never mind.

Quote:
Since the game is designed in USA and published by a non-German (US/French) publisher do I believe it is fair to assume that they have made a translation error in the German rules. Quite possibly under influence from the Amigo rules, which of course has nothing to do with the current version as several changes have been made.

Sufficient to say that the correct rules nn English can be downloaded from the DoW: http://static.piratescovegame.com/lang/english/images/pc_rul...

and that they state that your ship is crippled when the ring is moved OFF the lowest circle.


You're right, the English version states this clearly. I probably should have looked into the English rules right away. My bad.

With the ring moving off the foremost circle, paying 2 gold for repairs make sense, too, of course.
 
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Marco
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curio77 wrote:
Great Dane wrote:
And yes, he will go after the one who is stongest (in that section) first. In the second combat round will he go after the player who is second-strongest in that section etc.


Even if the second-strongest player WRT the LP's section is the same as the previously-strongest player due to the pirate's hit?


Alright, the English rules clarify even this by saying that ships are re-ranked once the LP has fired at each of them. The German rules once again are not so clear.
 
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