Bradley Hays
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I had not heard of this game at all before seeing it available for preorder on the recent Miniature Market email. On looking at the designers, the tiles (shown in pictures here), the player count, play-time, and mechanisms, this screams Campaign Manager 2008 re-skin (and that ain't bad).

Can anyone give me an official answer here, is this a reimplementation of Campaign Manager 2008? What, if anything besides theme, has changed?
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Martin G
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Hmm, I hope not!
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Steve Carey
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qwertymartin wrote:
Hmm, I hope not!


You can say that again!
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J. Atkinson
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Well, I hope not as well, but I see your point. However, I would definitely play this over Campaign Manager 2008 anyday (traded it away) The theme is more interesting for me personally.
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Jonathan Franklin
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Sits close to 13 Days too, which is not a surprise, as they all have common ancestors.
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Brandon M
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munihack75 wrote:
Can anyone give me an official answer here, is this a reimplementation of Campaign Manager 2008?


Sounds like a reimplementation to me.

"The game uses the engine from Campaign Manager [2008]."

Source - 46:25 point they talk Sola Fide with publishers and Jason Matthews.

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J. Atkinson
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Yeah, I heard that while listening to the podcast. I just hope they put a little more "meat on the bones" per se than Campaign Manager 2008. I think the biggest issue I had was that each side wasn't asymmetric enough for my tastes. I understand some of the asymmetry is developed as players construct their decks based on their choices, but I would have preferred each deck start out even more asymmetric based on being different parties before construction begins.
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Brandon M
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jgatkinsn wrote:
Yeah, I heard that while listening to the podcast. I just hope they put a little more "meat on the bones" per se than Campaign Manager 2008. I think the biggest issue I had was that each side wasn't asymmetric enough for my tastes. I understand some of the asymmetry is developed as players construct their decks based on their choices, but I would have preferred each deck start out even more asymmetric based on being different parties before construction begins.


I have other games for asymmetry. The relative ease of explaining and playing Campaign Manager compared to those games is one of the reasons I keep it around, despite the dated theme.

There is a good chance the retheme and second look tightening/adjustment of the system will finally boot CM'08 from my collection. I guess I am in the minority in wanting it to not stray too far from its roots.

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chearns
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qwertymartin wrote:
Hmm, I hope not!

Huh. I'd love to see a fixed Campaign Manager. I like the idea of quickly cobbling together a small deck and then playing it against each other. However, the decks were far too symetrical in CM2008 (seriously, if two idealogies are meant to be very different, they shouldn't both have the exact same mechanical effect), one strategy was far stronger than any other (raising Economy or Military was better than mucking about with the Issues) and, finally, the lack of a hand limit broke the game because the best deck was the draw up your entire deck and raise Economy or Military every turn for the rest of the game until you win.
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Martin G
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True, I guess if it fixed all my gripes, I'd be interested: 10 points after 10 plays: why I’m mostly done with CM2008
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Brian Pierce
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This is depressing news. I was excited for this game, but knew little about it outside of the designers. I own Campaign Manager and don't think it is a very good game at all. Since I was able to buy my copy for $5 at Miniature Market I assume that it wasn't exactly flying off their shelves.
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Rex Stites
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JBMoby wrote:
munihack75 wrote:
Can anyone give me an official answer here, is this a reimplementation of Campaign Manager 2008?


Sounds like a reimplementation to me.

"The game uses the engine from Campaign Manager [2008]."



For this type of game, I don't think using the engine from a previous game equates to a "reimplementation" in the sense that term is typically used on BGG. Most of the time I see "reimplementation" used, it's a game that literally just has a different theme pasted on, but otherwise is the exact same game. Any differences are typically refinements to improve gameplay based on feedback from the original implementation rather than changes to reflect a difference in subject matter.

To me, saying the game uses the same "engine" merely means that the core mechanics are going to be similar between the two games, but because of everything else bolted on to that engine, actual gameplay will be quite different. For example, Triumph of Chaos uses the Paths of Glory "engine," but they are two fundamentally different games. A player with PoG experience will likely have a leg up on someone who doesn't when playing ToC, but an experienced ToC would be expected to easily beat someone with only PoG experience.

In contrast, when "X" "reimplments" "Y", I'd expect a person's experience with "Y" to translate directly to "X" and that an expert "Y" player would also immediately be an expert "X" player. This is because the changes between the two are trivial in terms of gameplay (which is why people would be less interested in a mere reimplementation of Campaign Manager).
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Brandon M
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rstites25 wrote:
JBMoby wrote:
munihack75 wrote:
Can anyone give me an official answer here, is this a reimplementation of Campaign Manager 2008?


Sounds like a reimplementation to me.

"The game uses the engine from Campaign Manager [2008]."



For this type of game, I don't think using the engine from a previous game equates to a "reimplementation" in the sense that term is typically used on BGG. Most of the time I see "reimplementation" used, it's a game that literally just has a different theme pasted on, but otherwise is the exact same game. Any differences are typically refinements to improve gameplay based on feedback from the original implementation rather than changes to reflect a difference in subject matter.

To me, saying the game uses the same "engine" merely means that the core mechanics are going to be similar between the two games, but because of everything else bolted on to that engine, actual gameplay will be quite different. For example, Triumph of Chaos uses the Paths of Glory "engine," but they are two fundamentally different games. A player with PoG experience will likely have a leg up on someone who doesn't when playing ToC, but an experienced ToC would be expected to easily beat someone with only PoG experience.

In contrast, when "X" "reimplments" "Y", I'd expect a person's experience with "Y" to translate directly to "X" and that an expert "Y" player would also immediately be an expert "X" player. This is because the changes between the two are trivial in terms of gameplay (which is why people would be less interested in a mere reimplementation of Campaign Manager).


Getting into semantics here, but a re-implementation, as I see it here on BGG, is used for second editions that have rules changes (Stronghold to Stronghold (2nd edition)) or a game getting a new theme and some rules changes (Schotten Totten to Battle Line). Notice the "Reimplemented by _______" at the top of the Stronghold and Schotten Totten pages and the "Reimplements ______" at the top of the Stronghold 2nd Ed and Battle Line pages.

What you define as reimplementation I would argue is just a new printing with a new theme. Take for example Traders of Osaka aka Traders of Carthage. If you search for Traders of Carthage, you get Traders of Osaka because they share the same BGG entry.

I agree that this may turn out to be a different sort of game that uses a lot of the same mechanisms as Campaign Manager 2008 but be a very different game once it hits the table.

But without a rule book or more information and how BGG uses the term reimplement, I think my opinion is a valid one to hold until shown to be invalid.
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Rex Stites
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JBMoby wrote:
rstites25 wrote:
JBMoby wrote:
munihack75 wrote:
Can anyone give me an official answer here, is this a reimplementation of Campaign Manager 2008?


Sounds like a reimplementation to me.

"The game uses the engine from Campaign Manager [2008]."



For this type of game, I don't think using the engine from a previous game equates to a "reimplementation" in the sense that term is typically used on BGG. Most of the time I see "reimplementation" used, it's a game that literally just has a different theme pasted on, but otherwise is the exact same game. Any differences are typically refinements to improve gameplay based on feedback from the original implementation rather than changes to reflect a difference in subject matter.

To me, saying the game uses the same "engine" merely means that the core mechanics are going to be similar between the two games, but because of everything else bolted on to that engine, actual gameplay will be quite different. For example, Triumph of Chaos uses the Paths of Glory "engine," but they are two fundamentally different games. A player with PoG experience will likely have a leg up on someone who doesn't when playing ToC, but an experienced ToC would be expected to easily beat someone with only PoG experience.

In contrast, when "X" "reimplments" "Y", I'd expect a person's experience with "Y" to translate directly to "X" and that an expert "Y" player would also immediately be an expert "X" player. This is because the changes between the two are trivial in terms of gameplay (which is why people would be less interested in a mere reimplementation of Campaign Manager).


Getting into semantics here, but a re-implementation, as I see it here on BGG, is used for second editions that have rules changes (Stronghold to Stronghold (2nd edition)) or a game getting a new theme and some rules changes (Schotten Totten to Battle Line). Notice the "Reimplemented by _______" at the top of the Stronghold and Schotten Totten pages and the "Reimplements ______" at the top of the Stronghold 2nd Ed and Battle Line pages.

What you define as reimplementation I would argue is just a new printing with a new theme. Take for example Traders of Osaka aka Traders of Carthage. If you search for Traders of Carthage, you get Traders of Osaka because they share the same BGG entry.

I agree that this may turn out to be a different sort of game that uses a lot of the same mechanisms as Campaign Manager 2008 but be a very different game once it hits the table.

But without a rule book or more information and how BGG uses the term reimplement, I think my opinion is a valid one to hold until shown to be invalid.


For my purposes, there's no difference between the two types of reimplementaions you describe. Both are different in kind from two games that merely use the same "engine," which is the phrasing quoted above used to describe the two games in question.

You say, based on the above quote about the two using the same engine that SF will just be a "reimplementation." Regardless of the meaningless semantic distinction you've raised, it's fairly clear that "reimplementation" is generally used to describe two games that are virtually identical in terms of gameplay.

My point was that when you're talking about games with subjects rather than pasted on theme, merely using the same "engine" does not mean the games are virtually identical in terms of gameplay. There are myriad wargames and similar games that use the same engine but the games are fundamentally different and are not "reimplementaitons."

As you note, without rules or some indication of gameplay, it's impossible to know. The information that is currently available is that the two use the same "engine." My post attempted to demonstrate that "same engine" does not equate to reimplementation. To reach the conclusion you made, such a logical conclusion is necessary.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion. The fact is that there's no evidence to support that it's just a reimplementation.
 
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Morten K
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This discussion is pretty empty till we know more about the game. No need to worry about something we know so little about. Let's wait and see and hope for the best
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Jānis Rudzītis
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now everybody can compare both games because the rules of "Sola fide" are posted!
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chearns
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chearns wrote:
However, the decks were far too symetrical in CM2008 (seriously, if two idealogies are meant to be very different, they shouldn't both have the exact same mechanical effect), one strategy was far stronger than any other (raising Economy or Military was better than mucking about with the Issues) and, finally, the lack of a hand limit broke the game because the best deck was the draw up your entire deck and raise Economy or Military every turn for the rest of the game until you win.

Well, a cursory look at the rules confirms that they at least fixed problem number three. There is a hand limit of five cards.
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Jānis Rudzītis
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Now (1 month later) - why the rating is so low?
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Kai Mölleken
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baltaistehws wrote:
Now (1 month later) - why the rating is so low?


I would say...

A) Because it has just been released three weeks ago with a gazillion other games at Essen and

B) Many people rate after one play and the first game with the starting cards is just not as exciting as it often leads to a rather drawn out end game.
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Benjamin Benson
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Okay, more time has gone by... what's the verdict on this being Campaign Manager 2008 set in a different time period? Is one better than the other?
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Bradley Hays
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I still have not played it though I am interested. A recent The Long View - Quick Looks #25 talked about it. It seemed to confirm that there were several similarities in the mechanisms (although with some innovation as well) while the theme seems to be an improvement depending on your tastes.
 
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Chad DeShon
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I found the them in Sola Fide to be non-existant. Less theme than Campaign manager. All the regions are very very similar, unlike the states in Campaign manager.
 
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