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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Darkness and lightsource rss

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Willie Lothberg
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Maybe I am reading it wrong, but the way I understand it the effect of darkness is negated by fire or lightsource in the same or adjacent space. Adjacent could be a space in another room, does not even have to share a door. Not very thematically sound for à fire on the other side of a wall helping you as a lightsource in a dark room. Am I reading this right?
 
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Niklas Edin
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Read rules reference entry for Walls. Entry specifies that effects affecting an adjacent space cannot affect spaces separated by a wall.
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Willie Lothberg
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Thank you for clearefying, I will now read the entire reference before further commering.
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Jason Horner
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Walls and doors also block range, so an investigator that is separated from a monster by a wall cannot target it with weapons and does not need to make horror checks against it.
 
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...and there's no such thing as an "open" door in this game, right?

So regardless of whether a door is barricaded or not, it blocks both light sources and range checks?

EDIT: this is wrong... see later posts.
 
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Julia
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Darkness is ignored in a space containing a light source or in a space adjacent to a space containing a light source (ref guide, pag. 7, under Darkness)

Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall (ref guide, pag. 4, under Adjacency)

So this goes through doors, Secret Passages, over impassable borders, but not through walls. Even though two spaces that share a wall are adjacent, the rules for walls are that "Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through walls unless an effect specifically allows it."

Hope that helps!
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Julia
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(as you can see, the answer requires only to cross-check three different entries of the Rules Reference, to prove that entering a section about Light Sources was not needed (facepalm))
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Thanks! Good these references, aren't they!?

So, if I have this right now...

- "Light sources" CAN pass through doors (barricaded or not) into adjacent spaces containing Darkness, but NOT through walls

- "Range" (attacks or whatever) CANNOT pass through doors or walls
 
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Julia
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Pudsy wrote:
Thanks! Good these references, aren't they!?

So, if I have this right now...

- "Light sources" CAN pass through doors (barricaded or not) into adjacent spaces containing Darkness, but NOT through walls

- "Range" (attacks or whatever) CANNOT pass through doors or walls


Correct.

Also please notice that rules for range not having line of sight could result in ballistic paradoxes, like elderly investigators gunning a Chthonian in darkness through an angled trajectory (where angle = 90°) and a monster moving 10 cm away from a threshold (thus entering another room) becomes instantly protected as if it hid in the basement.

I sense many will houserule some points about range
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Jason Horner
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I don't I specifically said anything untrue, but my phrasing may have given a false impression, so I thank ScarletWitch for clarifying.

The simple rule of thumb is:

Walls block movement, effects (including light sources), and range unless something specifically allows it. (Ghosts can move through walls, and the app specifically states this.)

Doors block range only. Thus, investigators and monsters can move through doors, fire can spread through doors, and light sources can pass through a door to affect an adjacent space on the other side. But you can't shoot a monster through a door, and investigators are immune to horror checks from monsters on the other side of a door because both of those involve Range.
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Thanks again!

Scarlet Witch wrote:
Also please notice that rules for range not having line of sight could result in ballistic paradoxes, like elderly investigators gunning a Chthonian in darkness through an angled trajectory (where angle = 90°) and a monster moving 10 cm away from a threshold (thus entering another room) becomes instantly protected as if it hid in the basement.

I sense many will houserule some points about range


Heh! Line of sight & range seemingly always raise questions, no matter how streamlined or well-written a game's rules are. Not comparing this game to them at all, but Descent 2e (despite FAQ) + Warhammer Quest Silver Tower (pending FAQ) are 2 big examples of games we love even though we're not 100% settled on LoS rulings.

Sounds like we should expect a few Rules threads to pop up on the subject of Range over the weekend then!

In this case, these mansions surely contain enough old suits of armour & dusty lampshades that there could easily be ricochets to explain ranged attacks around corners
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Jason Horner
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Pudsy wrote:
Thanks again!

Scarlet Witch wrote:
Also please notice that rules for range not having line of sight could result in ballistic paradoxes, like elderly investigators gunning a Chthonian in darkness through an angled trajectory (where angle = 90°) and a monster moving 10 cm away from a threshold (thus entering another room) becomes instantly protected as if it hid in the basement.

I sense many will houserule some points about range


Heh! Line of sight & range seemingly always raise questions, no matter how streamlined or well-written a game's rules are. Not comparing this game to them at all, but Descent 2e (despite FAQ) + Warhammer Quest Silver Tower (pending FAQ) are 2 big examples of games we love even though we're not 100% settled on LoS rulings.

Sounds like we should expect a few Rules threads to pop up on the subject of Range over the weekend then!

In this case, these mansions surely contain enough old suits of armour & dusty lampshades that there could easily be ricochets to explain ranged attacks around corners


Sometimes the game is more fun when you suspend reality a bit.
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Justin Davis
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Played last night, and the only real rules question we had regarded the Darkness Tokens and the App. I was holding a Lantern (Light Source), and the App said to place darkness tokens in every space of the room I was in. It then gave the option of saying if the party was in darkness or not.

So, I guess the question is, since I had the lantern, which illuminated the room, do I still put the tokens in the spaces? If so, do I tell the App we are in Darkness (it had a story line element to saying yes)? Does the light source only allow me to ignore the EFFECTS of darkness (using clue tokens), or does it also allow me to say I'm not in darkness when the App asks?

We actually played it that we placed the tokens, and told the App we were in darkness, though now I believe we should have told the app we were not.

 
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Richard A. Edwards
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Ruskicowboy wrote:
Played last night, and the only real rules question we had regarded the Darkness Tokens and the App. I was holding a Lantern (Light Source), and the App said to place darkness tokens in every space of the room I was in. It then gave the option of saying if the party was in darkness or not.

So, I guess the question is, since I had the lantern, which illuminated the room, do I still put the tokens in the spaces? If so, do I tell the App we are in Darkness (it had a story line element to saying yes)? Does the light source only allow me to ignore the EFFECTS of darkness (using clue tokens), or does it also allow me to say I'm not in darkness when the App asks?

We actually played it that we placed the tokens, and told the App we were in darkness, though now I believe we should have told the app we were not.


"Investigators ignore Darkness in a space containing a Light Source or Fire or a space adjacent to a space containing a Light Source or Fire.
• A space contains a Light Source if an investigator in the space has a Light Source or a Light Source has been placed or dropped in the space."
Rules Reference
 
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Julia
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SirRoke wrote:
Ruskicowboy wrote:
Played last night, and the only real rules question we had regarded the Darkness Tokens and the App. I was holding a Lantern (Light Source), and the App said to place darkness tokens in every space of the room I was in. It then gave the option of saying if the party was in darkness or not.

So, I guess the question is, since I had the lantern, which illuminated the room, do I still put the tokens in the spaces? If so, do I tell the App we are in Darkness (it had a story line element to saying yes)? Does the light source only allow me to ignore the EFFECTS of darkness (using clue tokens), or does it also allow me to say I'm not in darkness when the App asks?

We actually played it that we placed the tokens, and told the App we were in darkness, though now I believe we should have told the app we were not.



"Investigators ignore Darkness in a space containing a Light Source or Fire or a space adjacent to a space containing a Light Source or Fire.
• A space contains a Light Source if an investigator in the space has a Light Source or a Light Source has been placed or dropped in the space."
Rules Reference


Exactly. You're allowed to ignore Darkness, but this doesn't mean you are not in Darkness
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oldschoolgamr
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
Exactly. You're allowed to ignore Darkness, but this doesn't mean you are not in Darkness


That is super confusing and not clear at all. So light stops the EFFECT of darkness, but your still in it for purposes of Mythos effects? Ok, so that means you "kinda" ignore it, just not during the question "are you in it."

Not great rule writing if you ask me - or am I missing something.

I would think someone with a light source in is light and not darkness... so that thinking isn't even intuitive.
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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I'd say you ignore all effects of Darkness. You'd still place a token, if directed, but for all other purposes, you ignore it and so are not considered to be in darkness even if you're in a space with a darkness token.
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oldschoolgamr
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SirRoke wrote:
I'd say you ignore all effects of Darkness. You'd still place a token, if directed, but for all other purposes, you ignore it and so are not considered to be in darkness even if you're in a space with a darkness token.

Yeah, but Julia is a play tester, so I am trying to understand the intent. I suppose I can see someone with a lantern in the dark is still surrounded by shadows outside the radius of the light source - so something may still come out of the shadows? - just seems like a strange distinction that is not at all what comes from the rules as written.
 
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Julia
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oldschoolgamr wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
I'd say you ignore all effects of Darkness. You'd still place a token, if directed, but for all other purposes, you ignore it and so are not considered to be in darkness even if you're in a space with a darkness token.

Yeah, but Julia is a play tester, so I am trying to understand the intent. I suppose I can see someone with a lantern in the dark is still surrounded by shadows outside the radius of the light source - so something may still come out of the shadows? - just seems like a strange distinction that is not at all what comes from the rules as written.


I don't know the exact circumstances why the app needed to know if investigators where in Darkness, I just tried to remember that there are two different things going on at the moment:

a) the room is in Darkness. This means that if the investigator with the Light source moves away, the investigators remaining in the room are still affected by Darkness
b) the presence of the light is an additional effect that allows investigators there to ignore Darkness

so, there are two effects to keep into account

At this point, it'd be interesting to know what the app was exactly aiming at. Let's say it's a Mythos effect targetting investigators in a room with Darkness: the Mythos effect doesn't trigger because investigators are under the benefit of the light source (or at least this is my reading). Let's say the Mythos effect spawns a Cultist in each room having a Darkness token: the Cultist is regularly spawn (still in my reading) because the effect targets the space having darkness, not an investigator being affected by darkness
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oldschoolgamr
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
oldschoolgamr wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
I'd say you ignore all effects of Darkness. You'd still place a token, if directed, but for all other purposes, you ignore it and so are not considered to be in darkness even if you're in a space with a darkness token.

Yeah, but Julia is a play tester, so I am trying to understand the intent. I suppose I can see someone with a lantern in the dark is still surrounded by shadows outside the radius of the light source - so something may still come out of the shadows? - just seems like a strange distinction that is not at all what comes from the rules as written.


I don't know the exact circumstances why the app needed to know if investigators where in Darkness, I just tried to remember that there are two different things going on at the moment:

a) the room is in Darkness. This means that if the investigator with the Light source moves away, the investigators remaining in the room are still affected by Darkness
b) the presence of the light is an additional effect that allows investigators there to ignore Darkness

so, there are two effects to keep into account

At this point, it'd be interesting to know what the app was exactly aiming at. Let's say it's a Mythos effect targetting investigators in a room with Darkness: the Mythos effect doesn't trigger because investigators are under the benefit of the light source (or at least this is my reading). Let's say the Mythos effect spawns a Cultist in each room having a Darkness token: the Cultist is regularly spawn (still in my reading) because the effect targets the space having darkness, not an investigator being affected by darkness


Perfect answer - I agree - the darkness token is there, but the investigators in range of the light source are considered not effected nor in darkness, but the token from the rooms perspective is that the darkness is there, hence the spawn. I am down with that.
 
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Justin Davis
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I can't remember the exact details but:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
My character (with the lantern), explored and opened up a 2 space room. I moved in as a free action of the explore. The other player moved in also, going into the second space of the room. The Mythos Phase said to place darkness tokens on each space of the room, and then asked if any investigators were in darkness. This was where I didn't quite know what to do, so I said yes, thinking that the light source just cancelled the EFFECTS of darkness, not the darkness itself. The App then said that it seemed like invisible, cold hands were reaching out, touching and hurting you in the darkness, and to do a horror check.


So, did I play it right?
 
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T France
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If you didn't actually DO the horror check, yes...
 
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Justin Davis
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Well, I DID do the horror check, because the App told me to. So, you are saying that I should have said that no investigators were in darkness?
 
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T France
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Ruskicowboy wrote:
Well, I DID do the horror check, because the App told me to. So, you are saying that I should have said that no investigators were in darkness?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Well, as I understand it, some Investigators are in darkness, but the light allows you to ignore the effects...
 
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Jason Horner
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
This is getting into a very subtle distinction, I think. Light sources allow investigators to ignore the effects of darkness, even though it doesn't change that the darkness is still there (e.g., the lights are out and the room is now dark. but the investigators can see because they have a light source). The app asks if any investigators are in darkness. They are, but the light source allows them to ignore it. So you say no.

I don't believe this protects investigators from indirect effects, however. If a mythos effect says to place a monster in each room containing darkness, that effect is resolved even if the investigators have a light source because it doesn't affect the investigators directly.
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