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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bear trap and scoring rss

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David Kowalski
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If you bear trap yourself and you only have 2 scoring cards left and a Nextra card with two Ops are you forced to play that card and therefore lose by not playing your scoring cards?
 
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Bear trap cannot force you to hold scoring cards; if you hold two scoring cards you are allowed to play them on your last two action rounds.
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Alex Drazen
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jindianajonz wrote:
Bear trap cannot force you to hold scoring cards; if you hold two scoring cards you are allowed to play them on your last two action rounds.


More generally, an event cannot force you to hold a scoring card. For example, an AR6 (by USA) or AR7 (by USSR) Missile Envy does not have to be played on AR7 if you have a scoring card in hand (it would instead be played on AR1 of the next turn).

You can get unlucky with Ask Not, though (if you discard more cards than remaining AR's and draw all scoring cards, you'd have to find a way to unload one of them, or else you'll lose by held scoring card).
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Conan Meriadoc
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By the way, in the specific case where you're holding two scoring cards and you have to play them AR6 and AR7 even though you're bear trapped, are you required to reveal them both on AR6 to prove good faith ? Can you just say "I'm holding two scoring cards" and maybe reveal just the bottom ?

or is that fact somehow implied when you play a scoring card AR6, which would likely lead to an automatic defeat in case you've been lying. especially if that AR6 scoring wouldhave won you the game...

 
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Alex Drazen
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Dystopian wrote:
By the way, in the specific case where you're holding two scoring cards and you have to play them AR6 and AR7 even though you're bear trapped, are you required to reveal them both on AR6 to prove good faith ? Can you just say "I'm holding two scoring cards" and maybe reveal just the bottom ?

or is that fact somehow implied when you play a scoring card AR6, which would likely lead to an automatic defeat in case you've been lying. especially if that AR6 scoring wouldhave won you the game...


There is also a case where you have two AR's, one scoring card, and a 1 op card (or two AR's and only one card, a scoring - maybe you got hit with an IHC-boosted Terrorism, for example). I believe you can play the scoring card on either AR6 or AR7 in that case (maybe you have Asia scoring and know from Lone Gunman that the USA has to play Korean War, which would flip Asia from 4-2 to 3-3 and prevent your own loss if it succeeds!). I did find one thread that said you cannot, but the designers didn't weigh in on it. Also, the rules are that you must play a card on your turn, but a Bear Trap discard could, semantically speaking, be viewed as not actually playing a card for Ops/Event, which is how "playing a card" is normally defined. Also, the literal Bear Trap text says you "may" only play scoring cards if out of appropriate cards, not that you "must" play scoring cards. Then again, 5.1 says you cannot pass if you can play a card (though there is an exception for if you only have the China Card). Maybe Bear Trap scorings are still "played" cards (since they score), but the rest are discards?

I'd say that if you have no valid discard to Bear Trap/Quagmire, you simply state "I do not have a 2 Op or higher card." I suppose in some sense, over the table, you'd be a little bit on the honor system in that regard, since you only reveal the bottom part of your held card(s) but you no longer reveal the Event or Ops.

I guess you could take a picture with your phone and then show it at the end of the game if your opponent was really that paranoid about you cheating.



 
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Ziemowit Pazderski
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Dystopian wrote:
By the way, in the specific case where you're holding two scoring cards and you have to play them AR6 and AR7 even though you're bear trapped, are you required to reveal them both on AR6 to prove good faith ? Can you just say "I'm holding two scoring cards" and maybe reveal just the bottom ?


To be accurate, you don't actually have to play those scoring cards in AR6 and AR7. You are only allowed to, which means that you are free to keep them and lose at the end of turn due to having held a scoring card. Or get saved by the opponent playing Ask Not or other card discarder :-)

Another question comes to mind though - can a player with 2 scoring cards play one of them in AR6, but then change his mind and discard? I recall seeing a thread about it some time ago, but couldn't find it among gazillions of threads about quag/bear/scoring combination.
 
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James
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In the playdek app, I think you can play scoring cards on any round that you are trapped, even earlier ones.

So I'd like to know if it is a rules exception for the traps, that you can ignore the trap for the round if you are playing a scoring card even if you don't have to play the scoring card right away to avoid end-of-turn loss.
 
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Michael Valentine

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Ziemowit wrote:
To be accurate, you don't actually have to play those scoring cards in AR6 and AR7. You are only allowed to, which means that you are free to keep them and lose at the end of turn due to having held a scoring card. Or get saved by the opponent playing Ask Not or other card discarder :-)


You have a legal play on your AR of playing a scoring card. You cannot abstain from making a play of a card when you are able to play a card. I wouldn't think holding a scoring card in this situation is any more legal than holding a scoring card on AR7 when it is the only card in hand.
 
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Ziemowit Pazderski
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MichaelVal wrote:
Ziemowit wrote:
To be accurate, you don't actually have to play those scoring cards in AR6 and AR7. You are only allowed to, which means that you are free to keep them and lose at the end of turn due to having held a scoring card. Or get saved by the opponent playing Ask Not or other card discarder :-)


You have a legal play on your AR of playing a scoring card. You cannot abstain from making a play of a card when you are able to play a card. I wouldn't think holding a scoring card in this situation is any more legal than holding a scoring card on AR7 when it is the only card in hand.


Ok, to be even more precise: "... you are free to keep them(scorings) and keep discarding eligible cards instead...". I didn't mention it because the original example stated that the player has scorings and a 2-op card, but perhaps I should have, for full understanding.
 
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