$30.00
G B
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi,

I'm new to buying second hand games, but my experiences in the past few months have led me to encounter two type of sellers: Those have played a game and decided they didn't like it (anymore) and decide to sell it at a reasonable price (50%-40% off) and those who see this as a way to make a profit by trying to demand ridiculous high prices in the hope that the buyer is either uninformed or really desperate to purchase this game at any cost (including sometimes twice for original price).

This being said, I often see reference to BGG's market price history as a mean to evaluate how much a given game can be worth. Looking at those prices, I find it hard to believe that they do represent real transactions. It is 100% confirmed that someone paid the price listed there, or could it be the case that someone listed a game for a high price, and when he remove his add he marked it as "sold" although there is no certainty that indeed a transaction occurred at that price?

Even by only looking at the transaction in my currency (CAD), I can't imagine people would be so foolish. A few examples of alleged transactions for a couple of games I shopped:
- Ora and Labora for 100CAD (I can have it for 73$ brand new)
- At the gates of Loyang for 75CAD when most other transactions were around 30CAD

There are plenty more examples. We are not talking about high demand games or rare items that are sought-after... just regular games that someone may want to purchase. Is there a CERTAINTY that those transaction occurred (the money/transaction going through BGG, for example?)

Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Game Steward
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
Hi,

I'm new to buying second hand games, but my experiences in the past few months have led me to encounter two type of sellers: Those have played a game and decided they didn't like it (anymore) and decide to sell it at a reasonable price (50%-40% off) and those who see this as a way to make a profit by trying to demand ridiculous high prices in the hope that the buyer is either uninformed or really desperate to purchase this game at any cost (including sometimes twice for original price).

This being said, I often see reference to BGG's market price history as a mean to evaluate how much a given game can be worth. Looking at those prices, I find it hard to believe that they do represent real transactions. It is 100% confirmed that someone paid the price listed there, or could it be the case that someone listed a game for a high price, and when he remove his add he marked it as "sold" although there is no certainty that indeed a transaction occurred at that price?

Even by only looking at the transaction in my currency (CAD), I can't imagine people would be so foolish. A few examples of alleged transactions for a couple of games I shopped:
- Ora and Labora for 100CAD (I can have it for 73$ brand new)
- At the gates of Loyang for 75CAD when most other transactions were around 30CAD

There are plenty more examples. We are not talking about high demand games or rare items that are sought-after... just regular games that someone may want to purchase. Is there a CERTAINTY that those transaction occurred (the money/transaction going through BGG, for example?)

Thanks


The transactions were confirmed through the BGG marketplace, although it's not necessarily the case that money ever changed hands.

However, there are more likely explanations than some kind of con or fraud. Some common reasons:

1. The sale may be listed under a single game, but actually represents the sale of multiple games in an auction. If you click on the description of the item, it will often list the games included in the sale, or at least state that it is an auto generated listing from an auction.

2. Note when the sale occurred, as the game may have been out of print at the time it was sold. That may have been the case with Ora et Labora. It was OOP for a couple years, so new and like new copies were definitely selling at a premium.

3. The game may have included promos or expansions that explained the higher price. This is especially common in games that were first published through Kickstarter.

12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Dunn
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
"...to excel above the common rate, in frivolous things, is nothing graceful in a man of quality and honor." - Michel de Montaigne
badge
Let's just play everything always.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What you want to use that for is to determine an average price for an item. When a transaction is listed that's above a normal price, it's frequently from a geek auction that's bundling several things together. When you look at the price history, often version and details of that auction are blank.

Occasionally, someone will also buy something for an inflated price because there is another item they are buying that they can save money with due to bundling the shipping together.

Also, games roll in and out of print all the time, so there are a lot of factors in those prices. I doubt very much people are faking transactions so they can claim a higher price than is warranted.

Stick to buying used games from players, rather than prospectors. Keep an eye on the geeklist auctions section.
4 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Schindler
United States
Lombard
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As far as I know, those are real prices.

However, there's more to it than just the prices. You can click on the item and see WHAT sold for that price. So in some instances, the item might be listed as "Ora et Labora," for example, but it was actually for an auction package that included Ora et Labora and other stuff. Or additional chrome might be included, or it might be a collector's edition of some sort. Or it might have sold for that price between print runs. There's a lot more to it than simply the price it sold for. But yes, the price history reflects actual transactions. The price history is a great tool for sellers AND buyers to determine whether a price is fair.

Edit: ninjad
6 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Levine
United States
Clinton
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It looks like, in the examples you give, it has to do with items becoming OOP/being reprinted + the limited number of transactions limited to CAD. If you look at all currencies (or CAD + USD only), you can see that Ora's price was higher previously, when it was OOP, and it's gone down since it has been reprinted, while Gates of Loyang was cheaper before, but its price has gone up since it went OOP.

Another thing that can happen is that when there's a BGG Auction, and one person wins multiple items, the person selling the games may only creates one marketplace listing for the total cost of all the items won, instead of creating marketplace listings for each one, which can cause a random spike in the pricing data.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I gave into OOP panic once, it just happens OK!?

I think looking at the history is still a good starting point. You still should double check highs and lows and for recent trends.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Wurtsboro
NY
flag msg tools
admin
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
when he remove his add he marked it as "sold" although there is no certainty that indeed a transaction occurred at that price?


The other questions have been covered, but I just wanted to touch on this one - when someone buys a listing, and the seller confirms it, the system changes it to sold (and it goes from for sale to sold in your profile). You can remove a listing, but it just removes it. It doesn't show as sold.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G B
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks all for the many replies.

It still baffles me that people would pay a 50% premium for a used game that is OOP. Logic dictates that is the games is truly incredible (Agricola for example) then as some point in the not too distant future the publisher will certainly print that game again... Why wouldn't he want to make more money from it?

And is the game is average or not so successful, then paying a premium doesn't make sense.

At least that's how I see it. I'd never want a game so bad as to pay more than the original price.

This being said, all responses above indicate that the price history does reflect real transaction. But what is the mechanism for a confirmation? For example,on kijiji, when I remove an item, it asks me if I sold the item or not, but that's it. On BGG, are both parties asked to confirm that a transaction took place? Or it could be that someone said "Buy" but then decided to not proceed with the transaction because of shipping price, for example?

Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Schindler
United States
Lombard
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It behooves the seller to only "sell" items that are really sold. (You pay commission on items sold.) So it's theoretically possible to game the system and fill the marketplace with bogus prices, but there's little advantage to doing so.

I've had to cancel transactions before--for example, because the buyer never paid--and was not charged commission. I assume this means it also was removed from the price history, but I didn't check.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G B
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
indigopotter wrote:
GameSnake wrote:
when he remove his add he marked it as "sold" although there is no certainty that indeed a transaction occurred at that price?


The other questions have been covered, but I just wanted to touch on this one - when someone buys a listing, and the seller confirms it, the system changes it to sold (and it goes from for sale to sold in your profile). You can remove a listing, but it just removes it. It doesn't show as sold.


Ok, so the mechanism is that a a buyer clicks on "Buy" and the seller "confirms" that he is selling it. In the end, there is no certainty that the transaction did go through, but it indicated that both a seller and a buyer were - at some point - in agreement for the transaction. That is correct?

Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Wurtsboro
NY
flag msg tools
admin
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
Thanks all for the many replies.

It still baffles me that people would pay a 50% premium for a used game that is OOP. Logic dictates that is the games is truly incredible (Agricola for example) then as some point in the not too distant future the publisher will certainly print that game again... Why wouldn't he want to make more money from it?

And is the game is average or not so successful, then paying a premium doesn't make sense.

At least that's how I see it. I'd never want a game so bad as to pay more than the original price.

This being said, all responses above indicate that the price history does reflect real transaction. But what is the mechanism for a confirmation? For example,on kijiji, when I remove an item, it asks me if I sold the item or not, but that's it. On BGG, are both parties asked to confirm that a transaction took place? Or it could be that someone said "Buy" but then decided to not proceed with the transaction because of shipping price, for example?

Thanks


If I list a game, and you want to buy it, you click Buy. I get a message telling me about the order, and I can confirm it. If it's an auction, the shipping details are usually in the header, and if it was listed directly in the marketplace, the shipping details are usually in the description.

There are some cases where the shipping may be more than expected, or the person otherwise decides not to purchase the game. The seller would want to cancel the transaction, so that they are not charged the commission when they were not paid for the game. It's unlikely that any completed transactions show if money did not change hands in a reasonable amount of time.

If I decide to keep the game, and I remove the listing, that is a separate process, and it does not show as sold.

As to the OOP games, some companies, like Splotter, do relatively small print runs, and it is often several years between printings. So if you want a game, paying more than the original price is quite common.

Then there are games like Glory to Rome, where issues with rights/the publisher/etc. may mean that game is unlikely to be reprinted.

And then there are games like Balloon Cup, which are reprinted with a different theme, so if you want the original game, it is hard to find.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
I'm new to buying second hand games

GameSnake wrote:
a reasonable price (50%-40% off)

50% off of what? MSRP? That doesn't mean much.

If it's 50% off of what you can currently buy it for at CSI or MM, then that's probably a great deal. But I don't see that kind of pricing that often. People tend to resell games for close to what you can buy them online new. So 50% off of that would be way better than "reasonable".

If all you mean is 50% off of MSRP then you can probably buy a new copy for close to that especially if it's been out for a while.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Madison
Wisconsin
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
Thanks all for the many replies.

It still baffles me that people would pay a 50% premium for a used game that is OOP. Logic dictates that is the games is truly incredible (Agricola for example) then as some point in the not too distant future the publisher will certainly print that game again... Why wouldn't he want to make more money from it?

And is the game is average or not so successful, then paying a premium doesn't make sense.

At least that's how I see it. I'd never want a game so bad as to pay more than the original price.

This being said, all responses above indicate that the price history does reflect real transaction. But what is the mechanism for a confirmation? For example,on kijiji, when I remove an item, it asks me if I sold the item or not, but that's it. On BGG, are both parties asked to confirm that a transaction took place? Or it could be that someone said "Buy" but then decided to not proceed with the transaction because of shipping price, for example?

Thanks


Not too baffling. Some games are never going to be reprinted, so it now has truly slipped into the category of collectible. I have sold many games at multiples over their original selling prices. Since you are new to the 2nd hand games market, it is understandable that you may not have this historical perspective. You also should realize that some people really do have a lot of money, or more money than time, or a strong desire to purchase a game at an elevated price - so not like you at all. Some people with money would be baffled why one would spend one extra second on chasing a slight discount in price, when they could be devoting their life to other pursuits. It's good to have perspective, makes other people's actions more understandable, even though you can't relate.

Every market is the same, so no surprises here.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G B
Canada
Montréal
Québec
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thunkd wrote:
GameSnake wrote:
I'm new to buying second hand games

GameSnake wrote:
a reasonable price (50%-40% off)

50% off of what? MSRP? That doesn't mean much.

If it's 50% off of what you can currently buy it for at CSI or MM, then that's probably a great deal.


Again, I apologize for my ignorance: What are CSI and MM? I assume online game retailers..?

In general, when I sell stuff (lamps, furniture, children toys, etc) on Kijiji, I'm usually able to sell at 50% of the price of the same item brand new. Of course, the factor of "collectible" never enters into play - I'm selling regular stuff, not rare or highly sought after objects. I've sold hundreds of items (and purchased a handful). So my EXPECTATIONS (possibly misplaced, I now realize) was that for a used board games I would pay around 50% of the price I can buy it new (in Canada, prices at online retailers are slightly lower than MSRP, but not that much), possibly a little more if the item is "like new". But that is before I learned that some people (many, it turns out) put sleeve on their card to "preserve" them (I assume) in an almost new state. Some are more passionate about board games than me that's for sure (although in my circles, I am considered the enthusiast one..).

I must admit, I've been lucky enough to find sellers that did indeed sell their games to make room for more.

But I do understand that others have a different perspective and I respect that.

Thanks for all the feedback and comments.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
It still baffles me that people would pay a 50% premium for a used game that is OOP. Logic dictates that is the games is truly incredible (Agricola for example) then as some point in the not too distant future the publisher will certainly print that game again... Why wouldn't he want to make more money from it?

because shit happens
There are plenty of great games out there that never got a second print run and so they are still selling for an inflated price and the buyers are just fine with that. Sometimes the company just sees better profit forecasts in moving on, if they didn't save everything it could be a lot of work just to bring something back to fill whats honestly a small demand.

and besides you couldn't pay me to have agricola in my collection. Ok so a little dramatic but I mean to say that board games are a luxury and the value that people place on them reflect that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
maf man
United States
Waunakee (madison area)
WI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:


Again, I apologize for my ignorance: What are CSI and MM? I assume online game retailers..?

yup
https://www.miniaturemarket.com/
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Kokaly
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I use the most recent sales to set my BIN price on auctions. Usually only the last 3-4 represent the current market value and only then if they have occurred in the last 3-4 months. Most of the time the prices are close to each other unless as someone mentioned they represent multiple items from an auction, an OOP situation or KS extras included. I Also look at CSI (in stock) to make sure I'm not overpricing.

When I look to buy or bid at an auction, I do the same.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Kenny Dorham || Trompeta Toccata || Whistle Stop || Una Mas
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameSnake wrote:
It still baffles me that people would pay a 50% premium for a used game that is OOP.

There's no point in assuming everybody thinks like you do.

I've paid more than a 50% premium for out-of-print games I wanted, yet it baffles me that people would support Kickstarters. We're all different.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.