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Subject: Why should the Rebels favour X-Wings instead of Y-Wings? rss

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Sebastian Grawan
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Both get build with the blue triangle and have the same stats, but Y-Wings have the better red attack die instead of the weaker black attack die the X-Wings feature.

So why should the Rebels even think about building X-Wings while they still have Y-Wing miniatures to place on the board?

Thanks for any help!
 
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Michael Ptak
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X-Wings have an easier time shredding TIE Fighters, and are valid for Death Star Plans. So X-Wings can cut the typical Imperial defenses down, then bomb the Death Star. Y-Wings can't hurt the TIE Fighters.

But the Rebel player is given more Y-Wings because the Empire has far more capital ships to use. The hope I think is that the Rebels use Y-Wings were the TIE Fighters aren't.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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The red die is not weaker than the black die. Each has their situational use.

When you make your attack run on the Death Star, you need to clear out the inevitable cloud of TIE fighters -- black dice are better for that.
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Angelus Seniores
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i have to agree with the OP that y-wings are better than x-wings and are my first choice.

the true firepower in a battle comes from the capital ships and they are difficult to kill as you need to have enough hits at once. killing a TIE on a critical result or odd damage is easier than getting the 4 red damage needed to kill that star destroyer.
if the battle ends and that SD still has but 1 hitpoint left, you will have to start all over in the next battle.

and likewise you want to protect your capital ships, those TIEs are of little direct threat to them.

given that most capital ships roll a few black dice, thats generally enough firepower to get those TIEs.

the only reason to take x-wings is to maximize the dice you roll to reach those 5 black dice as every die can help, but as the rebels it will be difficult to assemble a full fleet anyway
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Joe Rickard
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Your Y-Wings won't last long against those Tie Fighters if you don't have X-Wings to get rid of them.
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Ian Solo
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And if you have 10 Y-Wings you only throw 5 red dice, while a mix of 5 X-Wings and 5 Y-WIngs allow you to roll 10 dices (5 red, 5 black)
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Scott Lewis
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happyfan wrote:
And if you have 10 Y-Wings you only throw 5 red dice, while a mix of 5 X-Wings and 5 Y-WIngs allow you to roll 10 dices (5 red, 5 black)

I think this is a key point. X-wings are good support for Captial ships, too, whereas Y-wings really aren't; with a couple capital ships, the Rebels are getting a few red dice already, and Y-wings can only go so far on top of that.

Yes, capital ships also provide black dice, but I think the key is a good mix. You don't want to go all Y-wings any more than you want to go all X-wings. A good mixed force is necessary to support each other.
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Angelus Seniores
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you are not going to kill an SD or even an SSD with x-wings, the xwings will not prevent those ties from lining up their shots in rounds 1-2 so they can still take out ywings despite the xwings and each black die isnt an automatic hit.

you also need to think how to preserve your firepower over the next rounds of combat, if you have 10 ywings instead of 5 X and 5 Y, you can ensure you still roll a lot of red dice in the following rounds even with a few casualties.
but if you end up with only xwings, then those SD's will get away/pwn you

TIEs do not win the game, SD's/cruisers do as they move the troops around so taking these out is the priority.

besides, fighters are cannon fodder anyway, even as the rebels you should go for capital ship production whenever you can.

since you cant choose your forces for every battle, you often end up with limited forces in a battle, 2ywings alone could still possibly take out an SD with the right tactics cards, or a gozanti cruiser on their own, leaving their TIEs/troops stranded, not so with 1X and 1Y.

those ywings get more things done than xwings towards winning the game.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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Angelsenior wrote:


TIEs do not win the game, SD's/cruisers do as they move the troops around so taking these out is the priority.



TIEs do not WIN the game, but they can prevent losing it. See Death Star Plans.

One thing that's also easy to overlook is that even against only capital ships, 5 black + 5 red will get on average almost one more hit but also one more crossed sabers compared to 5 red alone. You can pretty much count on one if you're rolling 10 dice.
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Jason Sherlock
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My girlfriend left one lone Tie fighter behind at one of my Rebel planets.

All I had nearby were 3 Y-Wings. They flew in and got wiped out by the single TIE. If it was a couple of X-Wings instead, the battle would have gone very differently, and I could have produced and deployed at that location.
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Sebastian Grawan
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Quote:
The red die is not weaker than the black die. Each has their situational use.
I don't get it, both dice show the same sides...?

Quote:
the only reason to take x-wings is to maximize the dice you roll to reach those 5 black dice as every die can help
This +1
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Angelus Seniores
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jackalope wrote:
My girlfriend left one lone Tie fighter behind at one of my Rebel planets.

All I had nearby were 3 Y-Wings. They flew in and got wiped out by the single TIE. If it was a couple of X-Wings instead, the battle would have gone very differently, and I could have produced and deployed at that location.


statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit and 50% chance to land a crossed sabers, the TIE has 50% chance to land a hit and 16,6% chance to roll a crossed sabers in the first round, so if you lost by the dice you were simply unlucky or the tactics cards from the leaders made the difference

small battles have a higher chance to freak results due to the tactics cards, which doesnt care what type of ship you bring to the battle.
 
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Witold G
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Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.
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Angelus Seniores
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demoss1 wrote:


TIEs do not WIN the game, but they can prevent losing it. See Death Star Plans.

One thing that's also easy to overlook is that even against only capital ships, 5 black + 5 red will get on average almost one more hit but also one more crossed sabers compared to 5 red alone. You can pretty much count on one if you're rolling 10 dice.


sure, the death star on its own with TIEs is the only target for which the xwings are your best choice, but the loss of the death star isnt automatically a game loss.

capital ships will never roll only 5 red dice, each capital ship rolls at least 1 black die so you are likely to face 3 black and 5 red dice, xwings are not the only way to add black dice to your fleet.

overall, its only useful to build xwings for specific situations, ywings are useful in more situations
 
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Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


I love seeing people know statistics
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Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


Against a single TIE with a 50% chance of getting a hit, my 3 Y-wings were at a disadvantage. A single X-Wing would have evened up the odds.
 
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Ian Solo
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Idea for a house rule : the X-Wing could have the "escort ability" that would force the imperial player to assign "fighter hits" to X-Wings first and then to Y-Wings once all X-Wings have at least one damage assigned too.
 
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Steve Hope
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jackalope wrote:
Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


Against a single TIE with a 50% chance of getting a hit, my 3 Y-wings were at a disadvantage. A single X-Wing would have evened up the odds.


I'm not sure what you mean here, but I would guess that the chance of actually winning a battle with 3 Y-wings against a single TIE fighter is well above 80%. Still not as good as it would be with X-wings, obviously.
 
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Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


BTW, it's the same odds of successfully blowing up the death star without the 'one in a million' card!
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David K.
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TheV0791 wrote:
Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


BTW, it's the same odds of successfully blowing up the death star without the 'one in a million' card!


Never tell me the odds!

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I played with numbers this morning to measure the impact of replacing an Y-wing by an X-wing in a squadron of 3 fighters.

The chances of at least one hit on capital ships from a squad of 3 Y-wings is 87.5%.
The chances of at least one hit on capital ships from a squad of 2 Y-wings and 1 X-wing is 79.17%.
It's roughly a 10.5% accuracy decrease but you will still hit at least once, 4 times out of 5 on average.

The chances of at least one hit on fighters from a squad of 3 Y-wings is 42.13% (as it was stated in this thread before).
The chances of at least one hit on fighters from a squad of 2 Y-wings and 1 X-wing is 65.28%.
Here you get a 35.5% accuracy increase and you will now get at least one hit, 2 times out of 3 on average.

So I believe X-Wings are worth it and a good mixture of X-Wings/Y-Wings will allow for great balance in squadron fleets!
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Shadowen wrote:
TheV0791 wrote:
Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


BTW, it's the same odds of successfully blowing up the death star without the 'one in a million' card!


Never tell me the odds!



Sorry I just did that
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Scott Lewis
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Interesting analysis It makes it look like an "idea" combo might be a 2:1 ratio of Y-wings to X-wings.

Of course, that ratio could differ depending on the capital ships used, too. Ideally, you want to be able to roll 10 dice in combat (or at least as many as possible) as often as you can, so doing whatever you need to do to bolster both sides is good, with a bit of padding to allow for casualties.
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Yan P.
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Of course, one typically hopes for more than one red hit out of their 3 y-wings. The odds of getting three hits are 12.5% with 3 y-wings, and only ~4% with 2 y-wings and an x-wing.

I agree with those above who usually build more y-wings than x-wings, but x-wings are moderately useful as well, especially for a death star trench run
 
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Jason Sherlock
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stephenhope wrote:
jackalope wrote:
Perf wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
statistically, 3 Y's have 50% chance to land a hit


It might seem counter-intuitive at first, but the actual chance to roll 1 or more [direct hit] results with three dice is only 42.13%. Unless you meant something else entirely.


Against a single TIE with a 50% chance of getting a hit, my 3 Y-wings were at a disadvantage. A single X-Wing would have evened up the odds.


I'm not sure what you mean here, but I would guess that the chance of actually winning a battle with 3 Y-wings against a single TIE fighter is well above 80%. Still not as good as it would be with X-wings, obviously.


I am heading to Las Vegas this weekend. The house has less of an advantage than the TIE fighters have in this engagement.

Ignoring tactic cards (or this gets really complicated, and we can assume that the number of additional hits is similar to blocks plus a bunch of cards are in the mix that either do nothing in the situation or require an extra saber die to work), A single TIE fighter has a 50% chance of scoring a hit in the first round vs 3 Y-Wings (2 hits, one direct hit die faces).

The 3 Y-Wings combined only have a 42.13% chance of landing a hit.

If the TIE takes out a single Y-Wing, now we are looking at 50% chance for another Y-Wing kill, and only a 33% chance of taking out the TIE.

Finally, the TIE vs the last Y-Wing has a 50% chance vs. only 16.7% chance of a kill coming from the Y-wing.

Even with the Tactics cards added, I don't see anything that looks anywhere near 80%, and chances collapse rapidly with each Y-Wing kill.
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