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Subject: Europa rss

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Enrico Osvaldi
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Hi everybody, I just stumbled upon the Europa series of monster wargames.
I'm not new to the genre,having played WiF , and I would like to know if they are better than the the latter,or even longer and harder.
Also I see there are a lot of Single scenarios such as Narvik,Fire in the east,Merkur ecc..is there any "starters"one?
Thank you
Enrico
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Bob Zurunkel
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Been a while since I played, but I liked them a lot. I would say that the rules are simpler than WIF, although I'll defer to others on that.

Good starter might be Case White, the Poland invasion game.
 
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Marty Sample
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Compared to WiF, Europa is apples and oranges. Much more detailed ground and unit scale in Europa.
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William Ford
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This is definitely what you want to get:



It should be released any time . . . .

But maybe don't pre-order it. Seriously, don't pre-order it.
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Leo Zappa
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Europa is fine. It's grand operational rather than strategic in scope as WIF is. I would focus on the titles published in the 1980's, such as the Russian Front classic Fire in the East. I would not bother with the latest incarnation, dubbed Total War. Also, don't worry about "dead series", the games published in the 1980's are great stand alone titles.
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Enrico Osvaldi
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Total war came out yet or are all you guys waiting for it?
Is it similar to the other Europa games?
 
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Marty Sample
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KrasnyOktyabry wrote:
Total war came out yet or are all you guys waiting for it?


That's a joke, right ?

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/808324/total-war-total-wait...
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Enrico Osvaldi
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God,how long have you waited?
I guess that all the other europa games have been forgotten as well then...
 
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Darrell Hanning
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KrasnyOktyabry wrote:
God,how long have you waited?
I guess that all the other europa games have been forgotten as well then...


Nope.

I still play Fire in the East/Scorched Eart about once every three years.

Just something about seven feet of map covering the USSR that imparts the scale of the German invasion like little else. Still a solid game.
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William Ford
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KrasnyOktyabry wrote:
God,how long have you waited?


I did not pre-order a copy, though I considered it years ago, but the earliest release date I know of is:

"Total War (Classic) in first quarter 2002"

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dd48b3b/1

So over 14 years of waiting for the early bird pre-orders.
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Michael Banta
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I have at least two copies of most of the games and actually have all of Fire in The East, Case White and Fall of France plus one map of Italy from Second Front set up now as far as the maps are set up then I got sidetracked and ended up stacking other maps on them. But any way if you go to the web site generalstab.org they have a lot of info on the series including all the counter sheets as nice sized pictures under the armory tab then under Europa tab and then pick the game and you get a good description of the game and pictures of the counters some or all of the charts and I even think acouple of the maps. If you like monster games that take a long time to play this is the one I like it but I do not get to play it very much I do a lot of solo what if they had done this or had not done this to see how things might of come out.
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Hunga Dunga
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Anyone still play the original Drang Nach Osten! and Unentschieden? Were the remakes that much better?
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John Middleton
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These games are not any more expensive than any other large, multi map games.


There are lots of them that are really cheap, like Narvik or Marita-Merkur, depending on which edition you grab.

This series probably has more analysis and variants than any other game series. The old GDW Grenadier carried lots of stuff and the Europa magazine, obviously did as well.


Western Desert is one of my favorites.

There is even an old Strategy and Tactics issue game in the Europa series that is a super cheap way to try the system out, though the scale is a bit different, so it is standalone. Africa Orientale


The main difference between old versions and newer is that they updated the maps to all work together and incorporated new counters and OOB tweaks. GDWs components got better as time went on. Also, all the early ones were poly bagged....

They also had a penchant for redoing the air and naval rules all the time, though you could use whichever you like honestly.
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Wolfgang Kunz
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KrasnyOktyabry wrote:
Hi everybody, I just stumbled upon the Europa series of monster wargames.
I'm not new to the genre,having played WiF , and I would like to know if they are better than the the latter,or even longer and harder.
Also I see there are a lot of Single scenarios such as Narvik,Fire in the east,Merkur ecc..is there any "starters"one?
Thank you
Enrico


A few things:

1) Stay away from Total War and HMS / GRD unless you have money to throw away (then better send it to me and I see that I buy some games that are available for myself).

2) Europa is a great system but was hampered when the "old" company GDW became GRD became HMS/GRD. The rules "expanded / bloated" so I suggest playing it with TJ's MasterRules Set (one set to rule them all).

3) Yes, these games seem to be expensive but I was able to aquire them not paying more than a normal "wargame" - price. Depends on "I want them all now" or "I check offers / trades" - also see CSWs selling list. A lot of disgruntled grognards get rid of Europa or die of old age and you can get these gams for resonable prices. My advice: Stay away from these 500 $+ guys (unless you want to buy them from me)

4) The classic start is FitE but you can also start with France or whatever you get your hands on while I think Poland is a bit... odd when using it as a starting point. Completes the collection but I'm glad I started with FitE / SE / TU. Have a complete unpunched set of the series behind be right now but I'm not willing to die soon .

The Europa line is something like "the classic" - that is: it misses some of the newer chrome and for sure the nice look of newer games. And they are huge and take their time. FitE has no difficult rules (especially when comparing them to WiF but skyline - counterstacks. TJ's rules are not difficult too and IMHO keep the original intent.

Europa's rules like in Second Front are ... yuk - they give you a glimpse of what you can expect when TW will come out (peat anyone?).
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John Middleton
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I strongly dislike all the GRD stuff.

Stick with the original GDW ones.
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Enrico Osvaldi
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I am truly sorry but I don't understan what you mean with HMS /GRD...also how many editions of FitE have there been??
 
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John Middleton
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That's the company that currently owns the rights at doesn't actually publish shit.

Most of their stuff is compilations of several GDW Europa games, though I prefer having the individual games myself. None of the "rule upgrades" were worthwhile and were mostly just messing with the system endlessly. Sort of like the upgrades for Federation & Empire.


GDW is the original company from the 70s that produced the original games.

The early games were all in ziplcok polybags and the later ones were in large flat boxes like the Avalon Hill classics.

The ones in the funky, "electricy" style are all designed to work together graphically and map wise.





edits - images being mental
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Enrico Osvaldi
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So should i look for the GDW version of the game i want to buy (Es.: the first edition of FitE)??
 
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John Middleton
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That's a huge game.


Better to start with one of the smaller ones I mentioned above.


Narvik is pretty good. Western Desert is great if you like Africa.
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Enrico Osvaldi
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http://giochinscatola.it/catalog/product_info.php?products_i...
This one?
 
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J.L. Robert
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Sadly, Europa is more a patchwork of different publishers' attempts to put it all together.

GDW laid the foundation with the core games.

GRD followed up by filling in most of the holes, and even tried to revise many of the older titles (with mixed results).

HMS/GRD took over following the death of GRD's principal, and have made a lot of promises that have yet to be delivered.

Here's a 5-cent summary of the games to look for, in roughly chronological order of the war:
1. Case White (GDW, 2 editions) OR First to Fight (GRD, 2 editions). Poland, 1939. Case White is not to the same unit/time scale as the rest of the series, and was designed as an introduction to the Europa family. First to Fight was designed to scale with the rest of the series.
2. A Winter War (GRD). Finland, 1939-40.
3. Narvik (GDW, 3 editions) OR Storm Over Scandinavia (GRD). Norway, 1940.
4. The Fall of France (GDW). France, 1940.
5. Their Finest Hour (GDW, 2 editions). British Isles, 1940.
6. Marita-Merkur (GDW, 3 editions) OR Balkan Front (GRD, 2 editions). Greece and Yugoslavia, 1940-41.
7. Western Desert AND Torch AND Near East (GDW, 3 distinct titles) OR War in the Desert (GRD). North Africa and the Levant, 1940-43.
8. Fire in the East (GDW). Russia, 1941-42. Revision of the original Drang Nach Osten, updating the game to the overall series standards. Just don't bother waiting for Total War.
9. Scorched Earth (GDW). Russia, 1942-43. Revision of the original Unentschieden, updating the game to the overall series standards. GRD reprinted this one, but some early printings had issues with the counters.
10. The Urals (GRD). Add-on to the Russian Front games.
11. Second Front (GRD). Western Europe, 1943-45. US OoB is massive.
12. Spain and Portugal (GDW) OR For Whom the Bell Tolls (GRD). Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar option. FWtBT includes a Spanish Civil War variant.
13. Africa Orientale (S&T magazine #128) OR Wavell's War (HMS). East Africa option. Wavell's War is HMS's only published product, but was mostly completed before they acquired the Europa license.

I THINK this is all of them. I'm going off memory only right now.
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Cameron Taylor
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J.L.Robert wrote:
Here's a 5-cent summary of the games to look for, in roughly chronological order of the war:
1. Case White (GDW, 2 editions) OR First to Fight (GRD, 2 editions). Poland, 1939. Case White is not to the same unit/time scale as the rest of the series, and was designed as an introduction to the Europa family. First to Fight was designed to scale with the rest of the series.
2. A Winter War (GRD). Finland, 1939-40.
3. Narvik (GDW, 3 editions) OR Storm Over Scandinavia (GRD). Norway, 1940.
4. The Fall of France (GDW). France, 1940.
5. Their Finest Hour (GDW, 2 editions). British Isles, 1940.
6. Marita-Merkur (GDW, 3 editions) OR Balkan Front (GRD, 2 editions). Greece and Yugoslavia, 1940-41.
7. Western Desert AND Torch AND Near East (GDW, 3 distinct titles) OR War in the Desert (GRD). North Africa, 1940-43.
8. Fire in the East (GDW). Russia, 1941-42. Revision of the original Drang Nach Osten, updating the game to the overall series standards. Just don't bother waiting for Total War.
9. Scorched Earth (GDW). Russia, 1942-43. Revision of the original Unentschieden, updating the game to the overall series standards. GRD reprinted this one, but some early printings had issues with the counters.
10. The Urals (GRD). Add-on to the Russian Front games.
11. Second Front (GRD). Western Europe, 1943-45. US OoB is massive.
12. Spain and Portugal (GDW) OR For Whom the Bell Tolls (GRD). Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar option. FWtBT includes a Spanish Civil War variant.
13. Africa Orientale (S&T magazine #128) OR Wavell's War (HMS). East Africa option. Wavell's War is HMS's only published product, but was mostly completed before they acquired the Europa license.


I'm primarily an OCS player. Do you think the smaller Europa games would be worth getting? I'm particularly interested in First to Fight, A Winter War, Storm over Scandinavia, and For Whom the Bell Tolls, since they aren't covered by OCS.
 
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J.L. Robert
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SeriousCat wrote:
J.L.Robert wrote:
Here's a 5-cent summary of the games to look for, in roughly chronological order of the war:
1. Case White (GDW, 2 editions) OR First to Fight (GRD, 2 editions). Poland, 1939. Case White is not to the same unit/time scale as the rest of the series, and was designed as an introduction to the Europa family. First to Fight was designed to scale with the rest of the series.
2. A Winter War (GRD). Finland, 1939-40.
3. Narvik (GDW, 3 editions) OR Storm Over Scandinavia (GRD). Norway, 1940.
4. The Fall of France (GDW). France, 1940.
5. Their Finest Hour (GDW, 2 editions). British Isles, 1940.
6. Marita-Merkur (GDW, 3 editions) OR Balkan Front (GRD, 2 editions). Greece and Yugoslavia, 1940-41.
7. Western Desert AND Torch AND Near East (GDW, 3 distinct titles) OR War in the Desert (GRD). North Africa, 1940-43.
8. Fire in the East (GDW). Russia, 1941-42. Revision of the original Drang Nach Osten, updating the game to the overall series standards. Just don't bother waiting for Total War.
9. Scorched Earth (GDW). Russia, 1942-43. Revision of the original Unentschieden, updating the game to the overall series standards. GRD reprinted this one, but some early printings had issues with the counters.
10. The Urals (GRD). Add-on to the Russian Front games.
11. Second Front (GRD). Western Europe, 1943-45. US OoB is massive.
12. Spain and Portugal (GDW) OR For Whom the Bell Tolls (GRD). Spain, Portugal and Gibraltar option. FWtBT includes a Spanish Civil War variant.
13. Africa Orientale (S&T magazine #128) OR Wavell's War (HMS). East Africa option. Wavell's War is HMS's only published product, but was mostly completed before they acquired the Europa license.


I'm primarily an OCS player. Do you think the smaller Europa games would be worth getting? I'm particularly interested in First to Fight, A Winter War, Storm over Scandinavia, and For Whom the Bell Tolls, since they aren't covered by OCS.


Logistics aren't as heavily emphasized in Europa as they are in OCS. F2F and AWW are both somewhat pricey on the open market for what may be something that doesn't do the trick for you. I'd try finding one of the other two; try the Narvik mini-game in SOS or the Spanish Civil War scenario in FWtBT. You can get a taste of Europa in a stripped-down manner that way without dealing with full OoB's and all the chrome.
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Enrico Osvaldi
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So not all the games you mentioned can fit together into one?
Stil didn't get to understand if the game is harder than WiF or no..
 
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Jon Gautier

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Here's a dude who is selling a whole mess of Europa for $300:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee7011b/81093
 
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