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One Night Ultimate Werewolf» Forums » Rules

Subject: Why can't players abstain from voting? rss

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Thomas Hauser
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I have played this game many times and many of them I still play that you can abstain from voting. I can't figure out any reason why this is disallowed officially.

If there is a minion but no werewolves villagers can't win, if there is a tanner who won't cooperate with the villagers then the villagers can't win.
Allowing players to abstain from voting fixes these problems.

I also play that the minion is a werewolf if there aren't any because this is practically the same as the real rules except better.

 
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Pasi Ojala
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ONUWW is not a team game. You talk like you think it is.

1.You make Tanner's winning very improbable, so you just shift the issue from one randomly and seldom occurring corner case to all games.
2.Why would you give your winning change to other player by abstaining? ONUWW is not a team game, you want to win, not help villagers win. Clever people can manipulate indecisive people to not vote to make their votes count instead.
 
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Thomas Hauser
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That is both true and false, you play for yourself but players can win as a team. What about my question makes you think this?
 
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Janne
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This was discussed quite extensively not too long ago here.
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Dok Indigo
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Thomassaurus wrote:
If there is a minion but no werewolves villagers can't win, if there is a tanner who won't cooperate with the villagers then the villagers can't win.
Allowing players to abstain from voting fixes these problems.


If the above is true, and everybody around the table agrees on it being true, then the villagers did a very bad job by not persuading the minion or tanner that they are no longer that role. In this case, the village deserves to lose.

Solving the puzzle is not the main game, finding your teammates and opponents and convincing everybody what "really" happened is.

Solving the puzzle and letting your opponents know what is true is not always a smart move. Solve the puzzle for yourself and tell a story that helps your own goal.
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Thomas Hauser
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a1bert wrote:

1.You make Tanner's winning very improbable, so you just shift the issue from one randomly and seldom occurring corner case to all games.


How so though? The tanner isn't allowed to vote for himself, so unless the villagers think he is a wolf he can't win either way. All abstaining from voting does is make it so tanner can't screw it up for everyone.

a1bert wrote:

2.Why would you give your winning change to other player by abstaining? ONUWW is not a team game, you want to win, not help villagers win. Clever people can manipulate indecisive people to not vote to make their votes count instead.


This is the only benefit I can think of. One game I played we all agreed to vote around the side but one player voted for me because he felt something was off. Well he was right, I was a wolf and they won.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Thomassaurus wrote:
The tanner isn't allowed to vote for himself, so unless the villagers think he is a wolf he can't win either way.

Do you ignore Werewolves voting for Tanner?

Werewolves can also benefit from abstaining because it lets them avoid killing other (robbed or troublemakered) werewolves.
 
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Thomas Hauser
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a1bert wrote:

Do you ignore Werewolves voting for Tanner?

Werewolves can also benefit from abstaining because it lets them avoid killing other (robbed or troublemakered) werewolves.


Well, if there is a werewolf left but everyone decides to vote clockwise, unless he thinks there's a chance he isn't a werewolf anymore he benefits most by voting clockwise with the villagers for the same reasons you stated.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Thomassaurus wrote:
If there is a minion but no werewolves villagers can't win, if there is a tanner who won't cooperate with the villagers then the villagers can't win.

The village can still win even if everyone knows there is a single Minion or Tanner and no Wolves. It's still possible for every player to vote for one other player, it's just a lot harder.

Also note that the situations you describe are very rare, and being able to figure out you are in such a situation is even rarer. If, as a Villager with the final piece of info that proves you are in this situation, you should not reveal it and instead figure out a way to hide the truth. If you already revealed it, state you were lying earlier to ferret out information and again obfuscate the truth.

Perhaps confuse the issue of who has the Tanner card now. For example, as the Troublemaker, state the Tanner definitely had his card switched with someone else but you won't say who. Now everyone is most likely to be a Villager, but somebody isn't. You can easily get a circle vote to pass this way.

Quote:
Allowing players to abstain from voting fixes these problems.

And introduces new ones. Again, the 'problems' are highly rare situations. However, you make the Tanner's job much easier in every other game. For example, the Tanner will always abstain, as they never want to increase another player's vote, removing the difficulty of the decision they need to make.

As Pasi states, it also makes the Dream Wolf, Minion and wolves that fear their partners have been swapped out with an unknown player easier to play, as they can now abstain rather than accidentally voting for their teammate.

The rarity of the lone-Tanner or lone-Minion situations are not common enough to warrant destroying the balance of the situations in most other games.

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I also play that the minion is a werewolf if there aren't any because this is practically the same as the real rules except better.

Why not just house rule him as a Villager in this situation? That seems to gel more with your other house rules.
 
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Clyde W
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Everyone must vote, otherwise the game is broken under certain playercounts.
 
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Thomas Hauser
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clydeiii wrote:
Everyone must vote, otherwise the game is broken under certain playercounts.


So far people have pointed out good reasons why the game is better or more balanced if everyone votes.

However the abstain from voting rule doesn't break the game. In fact if you are in a group of people who don't take the game too seriously, the abstain from voting rule works fine.


Of course I could be wrong, which is why I made this post.
 
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Clive Jones

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Thomassaurus wrote:
If there is a minion but no werewolves villagers can't win, if there is a tanner who won't cooperate with the villagers then the villagers can't win.

That's not true for a variety of reasons. The correct formulation is: if everyone knows one of those situations pertain, and all players are perfect logicians, and every player knows the other players are perfect logicians, then the villagers can still win, but have to rely on luck to do so.

So the first question is: why are you allowing people to discover with certainty what the situation is? People ought to be muddying the waters.

The second question is: why are you giving people space to act completely rationally? How about bamboozling some of them?

And even then, as has been pointed out, you're still not making the game unwinnable for anybody, just requiring them to rely on a hefty dose of luck. So what? ONUW isn't a luck-free game. Frequently, people have to play the odds and act in the face of considerable uncertainty.

The Tanner-and-no-Werewolf or Minion-and-no-Werewolf situations are pretty rare. They shouldn't be eliminated, because they do add an extra dimension, a twist, a frisson to the game. While it would be nice to reduce the element of luck in those rare circumstances, this mustn't be at the expense of breaking the game in more common cases.

Quote:
I can't figure out any reason why this is disallowed officially.

It is often said that people who know Poker is a game of skill can make good money playing against people who think it's a game of luck.

Similarly, people who understand why voting for another player is mandatory have the edge in ONUW over people who think it shouldn't be. :-p
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What roles do you play with? I play with lots of switching chaotic roles so that no one can be 100% sure what role they or anyone else has. It's fun and I've never had this situation at all.
 
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Thomas Hauser
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RichNCrispy wrote:
What roles do you play with? I play with lots of switching chaotic roles so that no one can be 100% sure what role they or anyone else has. It's fun and I've never had this situation at all.


Same here, usually all the basics Witch, Seer, Troublemaker, and then a few more based on what people want. I play on tabletop simulator where we have a couple fan made roles too.

Yes, the situation is pretty rare but it happens sometimes.
 
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Clive Jones

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Out of interest, do you ever get multiple people claiming to have been the Troublemaker? And does the real Troublemaker ever lie about who they switched?

I've even been in a game where the real Seer lied about what they'd seen, in order to act on a hunch and frame someone they thought was a werewolf. They were right. It was their first ever game. I was impressed!

Unlike something like Resistance, in ONUW nobody's got any particular incentive to be honest, except the risk of getting found out. (-8
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Thomassaurus wrote:
RichNCrispy wrote:
What roles do you play with? I play with lots of switching chaotic roles so that no one can be 100% sure what role they or anyone else has. It's fun and I've never had this situation at all.


Same here, usually all the basics Witch, Seer, Troublemaker, and then a few more based on what people want. I play on tabletop simulator where we have a couple fan made roles too.

Yes, the situation is pretty rare but it happens sometimes.
If it's rare then what's the problem? Even if the Tanner or the Minion messes up the game you just go and play another round. It's a super short game. I dunno.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Abstaining DOES break the game. Abstaining will often change the end result.
 
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Thomas Hauser
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clivej wrote:
Out of interest, do you ever get multiple people claiming to have been the Troublemaker? And does the real Troublemaker ever lie about who they switched?

I've even been in a game where the real Seer lied about what they'd seen, in order to act on a hunch and frame someone they thought was a werewolf. They were right. It was their first ever game. I was impressed!

Unlike something like Resistance, in ONUW nobody's got any particular incentive to be honest, except the risk of getting found out. (-8


People are honest usually but once in awhile there is a good lie, usually about who the troublemaker switched.



Hockey Mask wrote:
Abstaining DOES break the game. Abstaining will often change the end result.


Changed =/= broken.
 
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Clive Jones

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Thomassaurus wrote:
People are honest usually but once in awhile there is a good lie, usually about who the troublemaker switched.

Ah. I begin to see the problem.

In the groups I play with, you're lucky if a third of what gets said is truthful. (-8

By the time you have a Troublemaker trying to bluff people into revealing things they shouldn't, an Insomniac who knows they're now the Tanner, a Robber who accidentally became a Werewolf (but could have got swapped again by the Troublemaker) a Drunk who's trying to pretend they were the Seer, a Lone Werewolf who saw one of the two Masons that were in the middle and the person who began the night as the Tanner, almost everybody has a greater or lesser incentive to lie.
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Pasi Ojala
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clivej wrote:
In the groups I play with, you're lucky if a third of what gets said is truthful. (-8

And even that truth is to make it suspect.
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Janne
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clivej wrote:
Thomassaurus wrote:
People are honest usually but once in awhile there is a good lie, usually about who the troublemaker switched.

Ah. I begin to see the problem.

In the groups I play with, you're lucky if a third of what gets said is truthful. (-8


Third is a lot! Usually in our games _everybody_ lies, at least for the beginning. Just before voting some might change that to the truth.
 
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Clyde W
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I hardly ever tell the truth when I play. The role that most likely will make me tell the truth is the Wolf role, in fact.
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Thomas Hauser
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But near the end of the game, once people start getting more confidant that they are a villager the truth starts to come out right? Or is it just a fest of people spouting random lies and theories the whole game and then ending with your best guess?

I like how the game plays now. Most of the time the game is won either with a clever truth revealed at the right time, or a clever lie.

If you can't count on anyone telling the truth I feel like it would just be people throwing around mad theories that never do anything like in regular werewolf. Of course I'm not sure because I haven't played like this, I may be completely misunderstanding how a game like this would go.
 
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Gregory Mucklow
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clivej wrote:
Out of interest, do you ever get multiple people claiming to have been the Troublemaker? And does the real Troublemaker ever lie about who they switched?

I've even been in a game where the real Seer lied about what they'd seen, in order to act on a hunch and frame someone they thought was a werewolf.


You've basically described the game

It may take a while for new players to realise that the point isn't to collectively figure out the logic of what happened so that everyone knows who's who...
That approach will backfire pretty soon (and could put you off playing again).

Instead you need to be figuring out the logic in your head while simultaneously trying to distort other players' understanding in your favour (i.e. only convince other people to do a particular course of action where it would prevent you losing).
 
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Clive Jones

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Thomassaurus wrote:
But near the end of the game, once people start getting more confidant that they are a villager the truth starts to come out right?

Sure. There's a reason people talk for five minutes!

Sometimes, it's obvious what happened, you have a vote at once and move on. In the interesting cases, I tend to find two or three rival narratives forming around the table, with claims shifting as people from different suspicions concerning their own role.

One of the nice things about ONUW is that it's hard to give an example of a "typical" way the morning unfolds.

Alice: I was the Seer, and I looked at two central cards. But I'm not going to say which, or what I saw, just yet.
Bob: Alice is telling the truth. I was the Robber and stole from her.
Alice: Oh. Actually, I was a Werewolf.
Charles: Wait a moment! I was the Robber.
Dee: Alice, is there another Werewolf?
Alice: No - I was Lone Wolf and saw Seer in the middle.
Ed: Actually, I was the Seer.

Now what?
 
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