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Subject: Any better than Defenders of the Realm rss

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Thomas
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I felt like Realm was kind of bloated and fiddly. Is this version any better? Is anything different besides the theme?
 
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Richard
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https://boardgamegeek.com/video/105317
 
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What is better:

Map is beautiful and location numbers are on the map making minion placement easy. The graphic designs of the card decks themselves is better IMHO as well.

Minis for the minions are different for each minion type, a big plus in my opinion.

Lots more chrome to the game - items to find, mutations to gain, adventure encounters to experience, plus scavenge and karma tokens scattered around the board to provide reasons to go places.

There is an asymetrical minion faction called monstrosities that are like mini boss encounters, each requiring a different test or challenge to defeat.

Three different missions in the base game, one is the basic DOTR defeat the baddies, one gives a chance to build a defense laser to blast the baddies with, and one that requires you to build a plane to escape, and only requires you to defeat one baddie out of the four (although all 4 Leaders are coming at you with a vengeance in this scenario.)

Defender cards are more refined as well, with the option to sabotage bad guys instead of defeating them in combat, and special cards being separate from the defender deck and able to gain them in various ways (including trading in certain defenders cards.) The combat with leaders mechanic is now less harsh. Leaders now either dont regenerate health, or gain back a smaller fixed amount, meaning that it is possible to lose against a leader and not having it become a nearly game-ending setback.

What is not better:

Minis are decent but are not up to FFG or CMONs high standard. About the same quality as DOTR.

Same basic lots of rolling vs minions, collect cards to fight the Leaders mechanic. If you found this bloated or didnt like it, the same thing applies to this game.

Lots of small typos on the adventure cards get annoying when you read the encounters out loud and stumble through due to grammatical or syntax errors.

Only get 9 heroes in the KS version, otherwise only 5 in the base set. They did a good job of selecting which 5 to throw in, and if you are only playing 2-3 players you still get a decent mix of characters to choose from.

I like this version a LOT more than base DOTR due to both visual upgrades and game mechanic upgrades, and think that DOTLS adds a lot of fun chrome without making the game much more complicated. I think a lot of gamers who liked DOTR will really like this game. This is a better DOTR with more options and things to do, IMHO anyway. For gamers who didnt like DOTR, they will likely not like this game either. Unless the reason they did not like it was the graphic shortcomings or lack of chrome, which this edition of Defenders does fix.

Hope this helps!

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Thomas
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Definitely hated teh look of DotR but also felt it was a bloated version of pandemic. Wasn't bad just not worth the investment. This one does sound to have improved some things Id didn't like.
 
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Play time is probably around 2 to 2 1/2 hours once you get the hang of it. Gameplay does not drag, but it is definitely longer than Pandemic. The extra chrome gives it a bit of an Eldritch Horror feel, with characters having stats, able to get upgraded equipment and mutations and go on adventures (like Expeditions in EH.) Don't get me wrong, there is not nearly the wealth of equipment and spell cards like EH, and DOTLS is a much lighter game than EH, but DOTLS doesn't just feel like "Pandemic with lots of dice rolling" like DOTR could at times either.

The game is definitely better than DOTR in my opinion, but the basic "whack a mole" of killing minions before they can overrun mechanic is still there. If this is what you didnt like about DOTR, this didnt fix it. It definitely expands the game and fixes a lot of little things about the games mechanics from DOTR to make them run better and more smoothly.

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Brent Lloyd
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Personally, I think I prefer Defenders of the Realm.

1) I really don't groove on the Post Apocalyptic theme, I prefer Fantasy.

2) I disagree with folks that say the gameplay is smoother or more polished that Realm. I find Last Stand to be more fiddly and more complex with rule ambiguities scattered throughout.

3) The lack of Hero types in Last Stand is a definite issue to my mind, though of course if you were purely comparing base game to base game they come out the same. Realm is a few years old so of course has a lot more published options than Last Stand. That may or may not even out depending on how Last Stand sells. It will be interesting to see how they develop now that different publishers have the games.

I agree with Cam27 - if you did not like Realm, there is not much chance you will like Last Stand. The basic game play is the same.

Peace
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LargeGoblin
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Thunder wrote:
Personally, I think I prefer Defenders of the Realm.
I'm in the same boat. Last Stand adds a bunch of components that don't really add anything to the game besides making setup take longer and giving you some trap choices of what to do on your turn. It's also super easy since you can wound or even kill the generals without engaging them in combat. That's not to mention that this game seems to take an extra hour or so over the time playing Realm.

If you think Defenders of the Realm is a bloated version of Pandemic, I think you'd find Defenders of the Last Stand to be a bloated version of Defenders of the Realm.
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Brian C
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I kind of like Richard's bloat though. What worries is a comment I saw on another thread, that you can sort of ignore the rest of the game, and just focus on keeping the enemies and the oil and ammo depots culled, to find success.

All that other cool stuff going on is what draws me to this over Defenders of the Realm, but why have it when you can (should?) just ignore it?

Sadly a lot of what I'm hearing about this game makes me think there wasn't enough time put behind it. It's too bad, I was really looking forward to a deeper, more refined version of DotR.
 
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Battle Droid
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I guess you could make a house rule that Sabotage is an Attribute that Rangers have and do something like:
For an Action:
Discard 2 Crossed Pistols cards and roll a die for each card.
1+ Successes (so any 5+) the Leader is Wounded for one Health. (you only inflict the one Wound total)
For each 1 or 2, lose an Action each next turn.

That way it is not guaranteed and it may "cost" you something as well, representing the effort required to "sneak" around.
 
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Rick Vinyard
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Droideka_D84 wrote:
I guess you could make a house rule that Sabotage is an Attribute that Rangers have and do something like:
For an Action:
Discard 2 Crossed Pistols cards and roll a die for each card.
1+ Successes (so any 5+) the Leader is Wounded for one Health. (you only inflict the one Wound total)
For each 1 or 2, lose an Action each next turn.

That way it is not guaranteed and it may "cost" you something as well, representing the effort required to "sneak" around.

Perhaps, roll 2 die, one for each card.

0 Successes: Ranger takes one wound if a 1 was rolled on either die (catastrophic failure)

1+ Successes: Wound the leader for one health

That way you don't have to keep track of eligible and ineligible actions for the next turn... you just continue tracking wounds or actions.

Statistically, that gives the Ranger a 20 in 36 (56%) chance of wounding the leader, and a 7 in 36 (19%) chance of getting wounded.
 
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Battle Droid
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I like your numbers but in terms of theme, I don't think you should take a wound as you are not in direct combat with the Leader.
Thinking too that there should be a result no matter what and I like your result breakdown better, so I am thinking:

Roll 2 die, one for each card.

0 Successes: Lose 1 Action next turn
or maybe
0 Successes: Discard 1 random defender card
or maybe:
0 Successes: Discard 1 defender card or 1 item card
1+ Successes: Wound the Leader for one health.

Something like that
 
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Baldwin
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Really enjoyed my 1 play of Last Stand. Something about my 2 plays of Realms left me cold. I think it was the overly generic fantasy setting. All the minions being the same didn't help. I feel like Last Stand has expansions built into the base box. With Realms, you have to put out a lot of money to get where you would with the base of Last Stand (meaning buying the minion expansion packs).

Jorune
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Baldwin
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Exo Desta wrote:
I kind of like Richard's bloat though. What worries is a comment I saw on another thread, that you can sort of ignore the rest of the game, and just focus on keeping the enemies and the oil and ammo depots culled, to find success.

All that other cool stuff going on is what draws me to this over Defenders of the Realm, but why have it when you can (should?) just ignore it?

Sadly a lot of what I'm hearing about this game makes me think there wasn't enough time put behind it. It's too bad, I was really looking forward to a deeper, more refined version of DotR.


Well, I'm not sure what they mean, but the object of the game is definitely to cull the enemies and oil and ammo depots, no getting around that (unless you play the airplane scenario). The other parts of the game have to do with going on adventures that will help you gain equipment/mutations that you'll need to combat the enemies, pretty much like quests in DoTR. I'm not sure how you can win if you ignore the rest of the game. This game has a Runebound vibe to it where you need to get your heroes geared up to take down the bosses.

It's definitely deeper than base DoTR without expansions.

Out of curiosity, is your opinion of the game based on 1 comment in a thread? Or have you seen the same complaint elsewhere?

Jorune

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Rick Vinyard
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Droideka_D84 wrote:
I like your numbers but in terms of theme, I don't think you should take a wound as you are not in direct combat with the Leader.

You're on a cliff ledge, trying to snipe Bama as he moves through a small canyon near Devil's Junction. You line up the sights, aiming for center mass, adjust for the wind and start to squeeze the trigger.

Too late. You flinch, pulling to the left as a bullet from one of Bama's bodyguards tears through your calf. Next time, be more mindful of the sun and the reflection of your scope.

---

You sneak into Krank's camp. The plan: rewire the battery on Krank's beloved Eye Pod to ignite. You make it into Krank's hovel, but just as you pick up the device an unexpected techie walks in and raises the alarm.

You scramble out amongst a hail of bullets, but not before taking one in the arm. Not to worry, it's just a flesh wound you can bandage up when you get back to Last Stand.
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Matt Smith
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Exo Desta wrote:
I kind of like Richard's bloat though. What worries is a comment I saw on another thread, that you can sort of ignore the rest of the game, and just focus on keeping the enemies and the oil and ammo depots culled, to find success.

All that other cool stuff going on is what draws me to this over Defenders of the Realm, but why have it when you can (should?) just ignore it?

Sadly a lot of what I'm hearing about this game makes me think there wasn't enough time put behind it. It's too bad, I was really looking forward to a deeper, more refined version of DotR.

It is a deeper, more refined version of DotR. There aren't enough Ranger cards with the crossed pistols icon to defeat all four leaders with just the Sabotage Leader action. If you wait too long, a leader will advance into Last Stand. Yes, you can and need to sabotage the leaders a few times during the game, otherwise they will be way too strong for you to defeat. But in my experience it's not a strategy you can abuse to break the game.
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Brian C
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Jorune wrote:
Out of curiosity, is your opinion of the game based on 1 comment in a thread? Or have you seen the same complaint elsewhere?

It was more of a gut feeling -- hearing about the rules errata, then hearing that there's some fundamental flaw where if you partake in all of the cool "extras" of the game, it will actually be to your detriment (glad to hear you guys don't agree with that).
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Baldwin
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Exo Desta wrote:
Jorune wrote:
Out of curiosity, is your opinion of the game based on 1 comment in a thread? Or have you seen the same complaint elsewhere?

It was more of a gut feeling -- hearing about the rules errata, then hearing that there's some fundamental flaw where if you partake in all of the cool "extras" of the game, it will actually be to your detriment (glad to hear you guys don't agree with that).


I definitely disagree about ignoring the other components. In my game, I purposely tried to get mutations for the bonuses they gave, but I had to be careful because too much and you turn (the mutation cards have a number on them, higher the number more powerful the ability. Higher the number, more chance you turn. Push your luck element).

But I just don't see how you can win the game without doing the other stuff which is basically 'leveling' up.

Jorune
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Neil Edmonds
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Jorune has captured the essence of why Defenders of the Last Stand is different from Defenders of the Realm - it mirrors comments I've seen designer Richard Launius make about the game in other forum posts. You have to take advantage of sabotage, mutations, scavenging, and quests to win the game with greater regularity. I suspect the larger number of actions compared to Defenders of the Realm (7 actions instead of 5 actions) is supposed to make this possible.

Quests in Defenders of the Realm can be a trap or a distraction for the heroes. When heroes are too focused on completing a specific quest, they're spending actions to travel to specific locations and then spending more actions to complete the quest; instead of using those actions to cure tainted lands and destroy minions (in effect, it's like skipping the hero turn and drawing Darkness Spreads cards to make things worse.) Some of this design is still present in Defenders of the Last Stand, which is why I think some players are bothered by it - it makes winning more dependent on being successful at the secondary activities.
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Neil Edmonds
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I suppose if someone didn't like the new systems in Defenders of the Last Stand, you could make the following adjustments to make it play more like Defenders of the Realm as a variant:

1.) Reduce each general's total wounds by 3.
2.) Don't allow heroes to sabotage generals. Generals can only be wounded through direct confrontation (this might cancel out some quests too, I'll leave it up to players to decide if quests count.)
3.) Generals heal their wounds similar to Defenders of the Realm, which I believe is 1 wound in Phase III of each hero's turn. If the wound marker is on 1 (ie - the general is 1 wound away from death), the general is grievously wounded as described in Defenders of the Realm: the general can't move from their space when grievously wounded and they only heal up to 2 wounds (eliminating the grievously wounded condition) during Phase III of the hero's turn that initiated the combat against the general (ie - in a 4 player game, it means the general is out of commission for 4 turns). There's no rule for this in DOTR, but in smaller player games, you might want to apply a fixed duration of 3 turns for a 1 or 2 hero game to give the heroes an opportunity to exploit the general's wounded condition.

4.) You might also want to reduce the number of hero actions down from 7 to 5, or limit the actions in some fashion - such as allowing actions 6 & 7 to only be used on quests or scavenging - which creates a new meta as players try to min/max their turn. This allows the new systems to remain in play without making the game too easy as 7 action heroes confront weakened generals with one or more hero artifacts (artifacts aren't really part of DOTR except as the occasional quest reward).
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