$30.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Fire in the Lake» Forums » Rules

Subject: NVA Bot March Questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bruce Wigdor
United States
Lake Hiawatha
New Jersey
flag msg tools
First question: How do you go about doing things in an NVA bot March when Claymores are in effect (remove 1 guerilla per moving force)? Most specifically, how do you deal with the instance of placing a single guerilla on an LOC?

Second question, on the subject of whether to leave behind a garrison or not, we are told to

Quote:
Ignore this restriction if and only if another Marching group is certain to enter the earlier group’s origin space and fulfill this requirement.


How can you know if it's "certain" or not? I am having a great deal of difficulty knowing how to parse the March rules because of this rule.

Say I'm in the first step of a NVA bot-controlled March, moving some Guerillas in order to establish a base from a space with 4 guerillas and a base.

Normally I'd send 2 guerillas, but I can send all 4 guerillas if...what? According to the 3rd example of bot play, You need to be able to know that you will be able to first take NVA Control of 3 spaces before you can commit to sending extra force.

Quote:
These 2 groups are inadequate to both take Control of a 3rd space and protect 2 lone NVA Bases.


But how do you know which spaces you are going to be attempting to convert as early as in the first step? You don't know if you have adequate force--depending on random spaces chosen, and then random spaces chosen to fulfill the requirements, you don't know which forces will be available in the end and which will not.

Sorry if this is confusing, but I'm confused. :-)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brucewig wrote:
First question: How do you go about doing things in an NVA bot March when Claymores are in effect (remove 1 guerilla per moving force)? Most specifically, how do you deal with the instance of placing a single guerilla on an LOC?

Second question, on the subject of whether to leave behind a garrison or not, we are told to

Quote:
Ignore this restriction if and only if another Marching group is certain to enter the earlier group’s origin space and fulfill this requirement.


How can you know if it's "certain" or not? I am having a great deal of difficulty knowing how to parse the March rules because of this rule.

Say I'm in the first step of a NVA bot-controlled March, moving some Guerillas in order to establish a base from a space with 4 guerillas and a base.

Normally I'd send 2 guerillas, but I can send all 4 guerillas if...what? According to the 3rd example of bot play, You need to be able to know that you will be able to first take NVA Control of 3 spaces before you can commit to sending extra force.

Quote:
These 2 groups are inadequate to both take Control of a 3rd space and protect 2 lone NVA Bases.


But how do you know which spaces you are going to be attempting to convert as early as in the first step? You don't know if you have adequate force--depending on random spaces chosen, and then random spaces chosen to fulfill the requirements, you don't know which forces will be available in the end and which will not.

Sorry if this is confusing, but I'm confused. :-)



Got to parse this one.

First question: In regards to Claymores and whether the VC will move: If there is a stated purpose with the move (e.g. to remove COIN Control) and the Claymores Momentum (or some other similar effect) makes it impossible to fulfil that purpose, the move is aborted. If there is no such stated purpose, the bot will try to March anyway but die.

Second Question: Usually there will not be a group left behind to fulfill this requirement. However, determine which groups will move (mark them with a pawn to help you remember if desired), then see if there is another that will still have enough pieces to in march distance that will be able to move in. Generally this happens when it is a free march (given by the event, or if the trail is at 4).

You do kind of need to work backwards. Determine early which are the march destinations. This will allow you to determine which groups can take them. The orders are carried out in sequence, but just like with US airlifts, you need to look at the final results before carrying out the actions to determine which to do first.

Hopefully, this gives you a better idea of how to do the march. I woudl be happy to help if you have some follow up questions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Wigdor
United States
Lake Hiawatha
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Hi, Jason--thanks for the help.

Quote:
First question: In regards to Claymores and whether the VC will move: If there is a stated purpose with the move (e.g. to remove COIN Control) and the Claymores Momentum (or some other similar effect) makes it impossible to fulfil that purpose, the move is aborted. If there is no such stated purpose, the bot will try to March anyway but die.


OK, but how does this apply to the part of the March where the NVA places a single guerilla on an LOC? Is this part of the move aborted (because the single guerilla will die, resulting in no effect), or does the NVA (if possible) send two guerillas, having one die and the other complete the effect?

Quote:
You do kind of need to work backwards. Determine early which are the march destinations. This will allow you to determine which groups can take them. The orders are carried out in sequence, but just like with US airlifts, you need to look at the final results before carrying out the actions to determine which to do first.


It is not really possible to work backwards, because the process (especially as described by the example of play) is sequential and contains random elements, both in choosing the target spaces and also the spaces that will send forces to the targets. How do you "determine early which are the march destinations" when there is so much unknown information?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brucewig wrote:
Hi, Jason--thanks for the help.

Quote:
First question: In regards to Claymores and whether the VC will move: If there is a stated purpose with the move (e.g. to remove COIN Control) and the Claymores Momentum (or some other similar effect) makes it impossible to fulfil that purpose, the move is aborted. If there is no such stated purpose, the bot will try to March anyway but die.


OK, but how does this apply to the part of the March where the NVA places a single guerilla on an LOC? Is this part of the move aborted (because the single guerilla will die, resulting in no effect), or does the NVA (if possible) send two guerillas, having one die and the other complete the effect?


Since the order is to get a guerilla on an LOC, they will send two with one dying. If only one is available to move, then it won't happen and move onto the next order.

brucewig wrote:

Quote:
You do kind of need to work backwards. Determine early which are the march destinations. This will allow you to determine which groups can take them. The orders are carried out in sequence, but just like with US airlifts, you need to look at the final results before carrying out the actions to determine which to do first.


It is not really possible to work backwards, because the process (especially as described by the example of play) is sequential and contains random elements, both in choosing the target spaces and also the spaces that will send forces to the targets. How do you "determine early which are the march destinations" when there is so much unknown information?


You will need to work out the target spaces first (3 max). These usually are not random, as they go for the highest pop (first without a US base, COIN control preferred over non-COIN controlled). You then choose the marching groups that can theoretically move into those spaces. So, basically work out any random choices in these steps and mark them.

Now you should be able to see if there are any remaining groups that could move into spaces vacated by these groups.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Wigdor
United States
Lake Hiawatha
New Jersey
flag msg tools
OK, I think I understand the general idea, although I still have some follow-up questions as to exactly what some of the priorities are.

I've got two simple example questions here. I think you already answered the first one, but I just want to make sure.

Situation 1:

Saigon(pop 6), Kien Giang(2), Hue(2), Camh Ranh(1): 1 US Troop, COIN Control

Kien Hoa(adj Saigon, Ba Xuyen), Ba Xuyen(adj Kien Giang, Kien Hoa), Quang Tri(adj Hue), Khanh Hoa(adj Camh Ranh): 4 NVA Troops, 1 NVA Base, NVA Control

Assume the board is such that there are no legal bot Marches elsewhere

So the first thing we do is send troops from Kien Hoa to take NVA control of Saigon. Should we send 2, leaving 2 Troops behind as a garrison for the Base, or should we send all 4 knowing that the 2 surplus Troops in Ba Xuyen will be able to fill in later?

The issue is that if the 2 surplus Troops in Ba Xuyen are used to fill in Kien Hoa, they will not be able to control Kien Giang. The NVA will still be able to control a 3rd space (Cam Ranh), but it will be of a lower Population value, and therefore lower priority.

So which takes priority? Moving as many Troops as possible from the first spot, or controlling the highest priority spaces possible? I think based on your last post that the NVA would NOT be permitted to send extra troops, because you've decided in advance that the three highest priority spaces must be controlled. Correct?

Situation 2:

Saigon(pop 6): 2 US Troops, COIN Control
Bin Tuy: 3 NVA troops
Cam Ranh, Khanh Hoa, and Quang Duc are all pop 1, empty, and adjaacent to Bin Tuy

Assume the board is such that there are no legal bot Marches elsewhere

Do the NVA troops all move to control the highest priority space (Saigon)? Or do they instead split up and control the 3 lesser priority spaces?

Thanks for the help! I've probably got more complex follow ups after this, but I need to wrap my head around it a little at a time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brucewig wrote:
OK, I think I understand the general idea, although I still have some follow-up questions as to exactly what some of the priorities are.

I've got two simple example questions here. I think you already answered the first one, but I just want to make sure.

Situation 1:

Saigon(pop 6), Kien Giang(2), Hue(2), Camh Ranh(1): 1 US Troop, COIN Control

Kien Hoa(adj Saigon, Ba Xuyen), Ba Xuyen(adj Kien Giang, Kien Hoa), Quang Tri(adj Hue), Khanh Hoa(adj Camh Ranh): 4 NVA Troops, 1 NVA Base, NVA Control

Assume the board is such that there are no legal bot Marches elsewhere

So the first thing we do is send troops from Kien Hoa to take NVA control of Saigon. Should we send 2, leaving 2 Troops behind as a garrison for the Base, or should we send all 4 knowing that the 2 surplus Troops in Ba Xuyen will be able to fill in later?

The issue is that if the 2 surplus Troops in Ba Xuyen are used to fill in Kien Hoa, they will not be able to control Kien Giang. The NVA will still be able to control a 3rd space (Cam Ranh), but it will be of a lower Population value, and therefore lower priority.

So which takes priority? Moving as many Troops as possible from the first spot, or controlling the highest priority spaces possible? I think based on your last post that the NVA would NOT be permitted to send extra troops, because you've decided in advance that the three highest priority spaces must be controlled. Correct?


The priority will be to take the three highest pop spaces (this one is marked "First" as opposed to moving into vacated spaces which is "Second" Priority.

So in this case Saigon is number one (whether or not a US base is there as it has 6 pop). Then Hue and Kien Giang are selected. Since the troops in Ba Xuyen are allocated for movement, they will not be available to fill in at Kien Hoa, so only 2 troops will move from each.

To make this one more interesting, if there was a third eligible 2-pop space, then you would roll off to see which would be occupied. Then once seeing which groups could move (max 3), you would then determine if there was a non-moving group that could fill in one of the bases.

brucewig wrote:
Situation 2:

Saigon(pop 6): 2 US Troops, COIN Control
Bin Tuy: 3 NVA troops
Cam Ranh, Khanh Hoa, and Quang Duc are all pop 1, empty, and adjaacent to Bin Tuy

Assume the board is such that there are no legal bot Marches elsewhere

Do the NVA troops all move to control the highest priority space (Saigon)? Or do they instead split up and control the 3 lesser priority spaces?

Thanks for the help! I've probably got more complex follow ups after this, but I need to wrap my head around it a little at a time.


They can't take Saigon, as they will need to keep NVA control of their origin space, so they would need a minimum of 4 pieces (one to remain, 3 to get NVA control).

So they will roll off for which of the adjacent 1-pop spaces they will go to (sending 2 troops).

NVA bot will not split their march destinations, and will not use multiple groups to combine and take a space.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Wigdor
United States
Lake Hiawatha
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Quote:
They can't take Saigon, as they will need to keep NVA control of their origin space, so they would need a minimum of 4 pieces (one to remain, 3 to get NVA control).


Oops--good catch; my example was bad--imagine there are 4 NVA Troops in
Bin Tuy, so that the control of Saigon is indeed possible. Original question remains about what the NVA bot will do: control of Saigon only, or control of the 3 lower priority spaces?

Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brucewig wrote:
Quote:
They can't take Saigon, as they will need to keep NVA control of their origin space, so they would need a minimum of 4 pieces (one to remain, 3 to get NVA control).


Oops--good catch; my example was bad--imagine there are 4 NVA Troops in
Bin Tuy, so that the control of Saigon is indeed possible. Original question remains about what the NVA bot will do: control of Saigon only, or control of the 3 lower priority spaces?

Thanks!


NVA bot doesn't split its march groups, and it also follows priorities if possible, so one group will move into Saigon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Wigdor
United States
Lake Hiawatha
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Quote:
NVA bot will not split their march destinations, and will not use multiple groups to combine and take a space.


OK on the first part, but is the second part really right under all circumstances? It seems like the above quote is referencing the following rule:

Quote:
Each Marching group must stay together. If possible within the priorities below, they must end in a different space than all other groups.


It says "if possible," not "always." Is there some other rule that clarifies this that I am missing?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Sherlock
United States
Anaheim Hills
California
flag msg tools
badge
Admin @ www.cigargeeks.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
brucewig wrote:
Quote:
NVA bot will not split their march destinations, and will not use multiple groups to combine and take a space.


OK on the first part, but is the second part really right under all circumstances? It seems like the above quote is referencing the following rule:

Quote:
Each Marching group must stay together. If possible within the priorities below, they must end in a different space than all other groups.


It says "if possible," not "always." Is there some other rule that clarifies this that I am missing?


I looks like I got the part about groups combining wrong. They will not split (aside from earlier steps where guerillas can peel off onto an LOC or to form a a group for future base deployment in Laos/ Cambodia), but multiple groups could come together if necessary to fulfill a higher priority March destination.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.