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Subject: Three things to know before backing this game rss

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Shiro
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1 is well known and an update was even sent out about it
2 the problem serpents tongue ran into is they did not charge actual shipping costs and the fulfilment group/ warehouse charged them way more then they quoted. This caused them to run out of money since shipping was way more then they expected and backers were not charged the actual costs.
3 the charges of assault, kidnapping,obstruction of justice and domestic violence were thrown out as fraud.
What is your agenda here. Putting out false information that you know is incorrect since you have been told by others and is public records.
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Jim Pooley
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This thread may also be of interest:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1571825/never-received-fire...
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Dustin Rhoades
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I canceled mine just now. Too many red flags popping up this early. I feel like the name drew most people in and they didn't secure IP rights out the gate which is misleading and/or a rookie mistake. Then hearing about this criminal past and the clusterfrak of the last KS, that coupled with the fact that no KS board game has ever come in on time, ever. Meh, I'll wait for the retail version.
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Oblivion Doll
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It's one thing to provide public information.

It's quite another if you know there's MORE to the public information than you're sharing. Especially when the information you seem to have "forgotten" negates the point you're trying to make.

I'm not going to stoop so low as to accuse you of libel, because nothing you said was actually false. You did present misleading information about the arrest last year, but it's entirely plausible that you didn't know about the case turning out to be fraudulent.

There still are a lot of red flags, though, and I'm glad there are people making sure that information is both shared AND kept accurate when there are mistakes. I'm personally still very interested in seeing this project succeed, but I can see a lot of things going wrong that are pretty concerning.
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Tim Bailey
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What confuses me, is that at the very beginning, they said that the guy who designed Serpent's Tongue was "An employee" and that was it. Now suddenly it's multiple people and it's the same people running the kickstarter?

Also, if you had to change your game's entire name and IP, plus make changes to the cards and models to remove any potential IP conflicts...... wouldn't you just RE-Launch the campaign with a fresh start???? The only reason NOT to re-launch, is to hold on to those backers that haven't been paying attention and only backed due to the Armored Core Name.... so the fact that they aren't re-launching is a HUGE red flag. I had one of those ultimate bundles (great value if you trust them to deliver), and I dropped it like a hot rock.
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Tom Tjarks
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While I'm not 100% certain that the items in number 3 are relevant, the fundamental change away from the Armored Core license was my reason for cancelling today. The game has promise, and if it hits retail, then I'll look at it again. But such a large change at this stage of the game was the wrong step. They should have cancelled the KS, finishing re-doing the sculpts, and relaunched.
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Justin N
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This thread is pretty shitty. I'm the person who made the connection to ST and started the other thread, and this is what I was strictly trying to avoid over there- bringing up CG's legal history, which you (and I) know little about, and has no bearing on this project. The way he ran (is running? is it abandoned? Who knows?!) ST is frustrating, and it made me want to not get involved with anything he has his hands in ever again (even after his brother's 'explanation'), but slandering him like this is a bit beyond the pale, IMO.
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Michael Pedersen
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I have to agree, Justin. I am no fan of Chris's for a number of reasons. I do think he can make a fun game, but that is the extent of my admiration for him.

I have expressed my issues in the past, and publicly, and even I will not go to this level. Seeing this sort of behavior just sickens me.
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Duncan Idaho
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quixotic wrote:
and has no bearing on this project.


When someone is asking you for money, their legal history is relevant.

Quote:
but slandering him like this is a bit beyond the pale


Is anything in the initial statement false? Legit question, as it was brought up that some of the charges were fraudulent, but there was no actual information presented that that was true (and it would be very useful to get that info in this thread).

If the information is true, then it isn't slander.(And, pedantically, it'd be libel if the statements were untrue. IANAL.)
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Jason
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Idaho11 wrote:
quixotic wrote:
and has no bearing on this project.


When someone is asking you for money, their legal history is relevant.

Quote:
but slandering him like this is a bit beyond the pale


Is anything in the initial statement false? Legit question, as it was brought up that some of the charges were fraudulent, but there was no actual information presented that that was true (and it would be very useful to get that info in this thread).

If the information is true, then it isn't slander.(And, pedantically, it'd be libel if the statements were untrue. IANAL.)


Strictly speaking, the difference is that libel is written defamation and slander is via any medium (although most typically oral communication).
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Lance McMillan
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mactireban wrote:
What is your agenda here.


There's something strange about the OP's account as well -- although his account was established in 2011, all his posts have been made in just the past couple months. Suspect it's a "shadow" account used by someone (or some company) to mostly make critical comments about stuff that he doesn't want attributed back to him.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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Lancer4321 wrote:
mactireban wrote:
What is your agenda here.


There's something strange about the OP's account as well -- although his account was established in 2011, all his posts have been made in just the past couple months. Suspect it's a "shadow" account used by someone (or some company) to mostly make critical comments about stuff that he doesn't want attributed back to him.


Just to add support for how reliable and trustworthy a person "Trent" is...

Someone with the same name backed the game on KS just to post this same message in the comments. Obviously with no intention of ACTUALLY backing the project. It got similar comments to the ones we're seeing here. His response to being called out for misinformation was only slightly less of a non-response than here (didn't acknowledge the facts about the arrest being fraudulent).
 
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Trent DePonte
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My post contains only facts and cited information.

If anyone has any actual evidence of the charges Chris and his wife we're arrested on having been dismissed/withdrawn then feel free to post it.

You can attack my character if it makes you feel better about giving money to someone who has proven they can't deliver a successful project, has been convicted of reckless driving due to alcohol and/or drugs and arrested for domestic violence.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
If anyone has any actual evidence of the charges Chris and his wife we're arrested on having been dismissed/withdrawn then feel free to post it.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=provo+utah+arrest+records

It's really not that difficult, you know...

Like you keep pointing out, it's publicly-available information.

EDIT: Just for reference, I have my own reasons not to be backing this project, and also my own reasons for being interested in it even though I'm not interested enough to buy into the current state. I don't think it's wrong for you to be trying to raise people's awareness of the potential concerns surrounding the campaign and the people involved with it. I do think that when you've had multiple sources pointing out that your information is incomplete, it's probably worth doing PROPER research on the situation before you start spreading misinformation.
 
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Trent DePonte
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obliviondoll wrote:
FellintoOblivion wrote:
If anyone has any actual evidence of the charges Chris and his wife we're arrested on having been dismissed/withdrawn then feel free to post it.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=provo+utah+arrest+records

It's really not that difficult, you know...

Like you keep pointing out, it's publicly-available information.

EDIT: Just for reference, I have my own reasons not to be backing this project, and also my own reasons for being interested in it even though I'm not interested enough to buy into the current state. I don't think it's wrong for you to be trying to raise people's awareness of the potential concerns surrounding the campaign and the people involved with it. I do think that when you've had multiple sources pointing out that your information is incomplete, it's probably worth doing PROPER research on the situation before you start spreading misinformation.


You can be as snarky as you want but you didn't actually provide any proof.
 
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Bill Gates
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
My post contains only facts and cited information.

If anyone has any actual evidence of the charges Chris and his wife we're arrested on having been dismissed/withdrawn then feel free to post it.

You can attack my character if it makes you feel better about giving money to someone who has proven they can't deliver a successful project, has been convicted of a DUI and arrested for domestic violence.


The convictions were 14-to-17 years ago. And he wasn't convicted of DUI; the charge was reduced to reckless driving related to drug or alcohol use.

You throw around the phrase "domestic violence" like you're hoping people just assume he was beating up his wife. According to the story you linked, that isn't what happened. He allegedly attacked someone of unknown relation to himself.

Also interesting to know how it is you know that one of the women with Gabrielson during the incident is his wife, and one of them is an employee of the company, since none of that information was in the story.

(I'm also not a backer of the project and never intend to be a backer. The whole concept of a "real-time strategy boardgame" doesn't sound good to me.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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This was the first link that wasn't an ad on the search I provided you with:

Quote:
(5) Criminal charges once were filed against me but later dropped / expunged. Will they show up in your criminal charges database?
No. Charges labeled as "dismissed" or "plea in abeyance" ARE NOT listed in our criminal charges database.


http://www.utahsright.com/faq.php

And the search for Christopher Gabrielson's arrest history in the public record, showing his most recent VALID arrest was in 2000:

http://www.utahsright.com/charges.php?first=&last=&page=4731

The information you need is there, if you're actually willing to look.
 
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Trent DePonte
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milgate wrote:
FellintoOblivion wrote:
My post contains only facts and cited information.

If anyone has any actual evidence of the charges Chris and his wife we're arrested on having been dismissed/withdrawn then feel free to post it.

You can attack my character if it makes you feel better about giving money to someone who has proven they can't deliver a successful project, has been convicted of a DUI and arrested for domestic violence.


The convictions were 14-to-17 years ago. And he wasn't convicted of DUI; the charge was reduced to reckless driving related to drug or alcohol use.

You throw around the phrase "domestic violence" like you're hoping people just assume he was beating up his wife. According to the story you linked, that isn't what happened. He allegedly attacked someone of unknown relation to himself.

Also interesting to know how it is you know that one of the women with Gabrielson during the incident is his wife, and one of them is an employee of the company, since none of that information was in the story.

(I'm also not a backer of the project and never intend to be a backer. The whole concept of a "real-time strategy boardgame" doesn't sound good to me.


You're right, he wasn't convicted of DUI, I edited my reply to reflect that.

I used the phrase domestic violence because that was the charge he was arrested on.
 
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Trent DePonte
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obliviondoll wrote:
This was the first link that wasn't an ad on the search I provided you with:

Quote:
(5) Criminal charges once were filed against me but later dropped / expunged. Will they show up in your criminal charges database?
No. Charges labeled as "dismissed" or "plea in abeyance" ARE NOT listed in our criminal charges database.


http://www.utahsright.com/faq.php

And the search for Christopher Gabrielson's arrest history in the public record, showing his most recent VALID arrest was in 2000:

http://www.utahsright.com/charges.php?first=&last=&page=4731

The information you need is there, if you're actually willing to look.


That FAQ also states it doesn't list charges subject to a plea in abeyance (which requires a plea of guilty/no contest).

So, yes, if that website is up to date it appears that either the charges were dismissed or he plead guilty to them as a condition of a plea in abeyance but there's no way to tell which it is.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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Just gone and checked, and I'd misunderstood the section about pleas in abeyance at first.

I had been working under the mistaken impression that such a plea wasn't permitted for the "aggravated kidnapping" charge, but that's not actually the case. The case has to appear before a judge before such a plea can be in effect, but it can still be handled that way.

I still think that with as many people as I've seen poking holes in that particular claim, there's enough doubt that YOU should be checking your story for yourself. I know I would be if I was in your position. Don't expect other people to do all your work for you, especially when they could easily pull the "innocent until proven guilty" line and push the burden of proof onto the one making accusations.
 
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Trent DePonte
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obliviondoll wrote:
Just gone and checked, and I'd misunderstood the section about pleas in abeyance at first.

I had been working under the mistaken impression that such a plea wasn't permitted for the "aggravated kidnapping" charge, but that's not actually the case. The case has to appear before a judge before such a plea can be in effect, but it can still be handled that way.

I still think that with as many people as I've seen poking holes in that particular claim, there's enough doubt that YOU should be checking your story for yourself. I know I would be if I was in your position. Don't expect other people to do all your work for you, especially when they could easily pull the "innocent until proven guilty" line and push the burden of proof onto the one making accusations.


Except I'm not making accusations, I'm citing a news article about them being arrested. They were arrested, that is not up for dispute.

Whether or not the charges were dropped has not been proven one way or another. If someone can offer proof that they were I will add it to my post.

I'm not expecting anyone to do any work for me, I saw claims the charges were dropped but could not find any proof to back up the claim.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
Except I'm not making accusations, I'm citing a news article about them being arrested. They were arrested, that is not up for dispute.

Whether or not the charges were dropped has not been proven one way or another. If someone can offer proof that they were I will add it to my post.

I'm not expecting anyone to do any work for me, I saw claims the charges were dropped but could not find any proof to back up the claim.


So you're saying "I'm not technically lying, just deliberately spreading a story with good reason to suspect it's misinformation" and pretending that makes it ok? You posted 5 lines of text, NOT quoted, but typed by you, making a statement about the arrest of Christopher Gabrielson. Whether you're providing a source or not, that is you making an accusation. It may all be factual, but it establishes and is used to support a premise that doesn't sound to me like it's the full story.

Like I said, if I was in your position, I would be checking into that story after seeing multiple sources questioning its validity. I've personally seen enough to believe the arrest was unjustified. I don't have links to share for all of my information, but it should be a matter of public record, and if you really want to verify your story, the truth shouldn't be hard to dig up. If you want to be responsible about sharing information, making sure it's reliable should be a priority.
 
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Trent DePonte
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obliviondoll wrote:
FellintoOblivion wrote:
Except I'm not making accusations, I'm citing a news article about them being arrested. They were arrested, that is not up for dispute.

Whether or not the charges were dropped has not been proven one way or another. If someone can offer proof that they were I will add it to my post.

I'm not expecting anyone to do any work for me, I saw claims the charges were dropped but could not find any proof to back up the claim.


So you're saying "I'm not technically lying, just deliberately spreading a story with good reason to suspect it's misinformation" and pretending that makes it ok? You posted 5 lines of text, NOT quoted, but typed by you, making a statement about the arrest of Christopher Gabrielson. Whether you're providing a source or not, that is you making an accusation. It may all be factual, but it establishes and is used to support a premise that doesn't sound to me like it's the full story.

Like I said, if I was in your position, I would be checking into that story after seeing multiple sources questioning its validity. I've personally seen enough to believe the arrest was unjustified. I don't have links to share for all of my information, but it should be a matter of public record, and if you really want to verify your story, the truth shouldn't be hard to dig up. If you want to be responsible about sharing information, making sure it's reliable should be a priority.


I'm not lying technically or otherwise. The news story is NOT misinformation, it is a FACT they were arrested. I don't know what you're having trouble understanding about that.

And like I said, I DID check into the claim the charges were dropped and could not substantiate it. If you want to believe them without, as you admit, any actual evidence that's your prerogative.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
If you want to believe them without, as you admit, any actual evidence that's your prerogative.


There's a difference between saying "I've seen no evidence" and "I've seen no evidence I can share a link for".

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Also, the only claim you've made about having investigated is when you've asked other people to do your research for you. Other than that, you've picked apart the lack of effort I bothered to put into doing your research for you in the hope that you'd actually do your own research.

If you actually HAVE looked into it, cool! Carry on.

EDIT: Just one more thing to note - misinformation is not the same as lying. It is entirely possible to spread misinformation using only entirely factual statements.

Given the facts you've shared about this situation, it would be reasonable for someone to end up with the (entirely incorrect) assumption that Christopher Gabrielson attacked a member of his own immediate family. The fact that your DELIBERATELY-CHOSEN wording implies that - without technically lying - is misinformation.

It's entirely reasonable for someone to conclude that, with only a news story about an arrest, and no reports about a conviction, the case is still ongoing, which also appears to be false.

It would also be equally valid - but far less likely - for someone to assume that the lack of conviction means nothing actually came of those charges. From the evidence I've seen, in spite of your wording suggesting every other alternative to be more likely, this seems like it's probably what ACTUALLY happened.
 
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James Resner
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I have no experience with prior projects that any of these guys were involved with but I noticed something within 1 minute of reading the campaign page that is a HUGE red flag to me:

The pledge rewards say:

Estimated Delivery: July 2017

The second section titled "KICKSTARTER" says this:

:The goal is publicly launch this game August 2017 at GenCon with backers receiving their rewards a month or two earlier. "

That means rewards delivered in Sept-Oct 2017.

That's 2-3 months LATER that what the pledge levels state immediately to the right!


So which is it? Total lack of attention on the KS site or a deliberate attempt to push pledges by over promising?



 
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