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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: BattleCHAT Episode 1 - The Best Base and Why rss

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Marco Santos
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Hey, everyone! I have a new series up. One that's way easier to do than a BattleGUIDES/TIPS, and will come out more regularly!

Do give me feedback if you like it (or even if you don't)! ^_^

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Ed Hughes
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Good talk, but I think Drive is the best base, at least in a vacuum.

Assuming range 1 and no styles, it loses a mere 2 life to grasp, and beats everything else, including strike, by denying the trade. The ability to enter minimum ranges or stop short to avoid unfavorable trades is a strong advantage held by Drive. If you run the numbers on this theoretical matchup, you'll see that Drive's numbers are the best, by a good margin. Granted, the game isn't played in a vacuum, and there are countless variables, but when comparing bases, we need to look at them on their own. Burst in this situation loses to shot and drive, and beats grasp and strike. Its numbers are dead even across the board in a base vs base exchange- it deals six damage, loses six life, and avoids six damage. Burst falls in the middle of the pack in this way- it outperforms Strike and Grasp, performs comparably to Shot, but is outperformed by Drive.

Burst really only has the dodge going for it; it has no defense, low priority, and only average power. It also has the weakness of a minimum range. I find Burst really needs help from styles to be a safe play- something like stun immunity or an "attacks at range x miss you" type effect.

Burst is something that your opponent needs to play around, but the fact that range +0-2 styles (Or styles offering some combination of range and BA movement equaling 1-3) are surprisingly common, especially in Devastation and Fate. (War characters having been built around the original retreat 1 burst.) makes it seem to be one of the easier things to hedge against.
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Daniel King
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I'm not going to lie, at first I was thought the video was going to talk about the plastic bases that you put your character on and was a bit confused. I like the video though and you always produce great content!
 
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wkufan89 wrote:
I'm not going to lie, at first I was thought the video was going to talk about the plastic bases that you put your character on and was a bit confused. I like the video though and you always produce great content!


That's easy, the Fantasy Flight bases used in Battlestar Galactica are the best bases.
 
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jitjit2x junior
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Tnx marco for the vidz.
How bout some explanation of the moves on one of the pbf games. Tnx in advance marco. Lol
 
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Marco Santos
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
Good talk, but I think Drive is the best base, at least in a vacuum.

Assuming range 1 and no styles, it loses a mere 2 life to grasp, and beats everything else, including strike, by denying the trade. The ability to enter minimum ranges or stop short to avoid unfavorable trades is a strong advantage held by Drive. If you run the numbers on this theoretical matchup, you'll see that Drive's numbers are the best, by a good margin. Granted, the game isn't played in a vacuum, and there are countless variables, but when comparing bases, we need to look at them on their own. Burst in this situation loses to shot and drive, and beats grasp and strike. Its numbers are dead even across the board in a base vs base exchange- it deals six damage, loses six life, and avoids six damage. Burst falls in the middle of the pack in this way- it outperforms Strike and Grasp, performs comparably to Shot, but is outperformed by Drive.

Burst really only has the dodge going for it; it has no defense, low priority, and only average power. It also has the weakness of a minimum range. I find Burst really needs help from styles to be a safe play- something like stun immunity or an "attacks at range x miss you" type effect.

Burst is something that your opponent needs to play around, but the fact that range +0-2 styles (Or styles offering some combination of range and BA movement equaling 1-3) are surprisingly common, especially in Devastation and Fate. (War characters having been built around the original retreat 1 burst.) makes it seem to be one of the easier things to hedge against.


Excellent points. I won't lie. I kinda had Drive pegged as the best for a while. Given the length of the format, I don't really get to go into the nitty gritty on this concept.

Th reason I truly consider Burst to be the "best" base is not because of the frequency it gets played, or because of how it wins trades against things. It's simply because of the fact that Burst's mere existence changes what attacks are viable or not.

Sure, you can say that about any other base, but the way Burst invalidates attacks (by dodging) is VERY hard to compensate for. Range/Movement are VERY hard to come by, especially when compared to Priority and Stun Guard (which are things FG can give you, let alone a billion UA's).

In the end, it's the consistency of Burst's dodge (and the pressure it exerts on opponents) that makes it good.

My point has always been this: The reason Drive's really good is simply because Burst exists. Without Burst, I'd rather Shot at range, Strike for melee power, and Grasp for melee speed.

Though, that is just my opinion! I can totally understand why you'd think Drive is better (it's pegged as a close second to burst in my book!)

wkufan89 wrote:
I'm not going to lie, at first I was thought the video was going to talk about the plastic bases that you put your character on and was a bit confused. I like the video though and you always produce great content!


Hahahaha! I don't even know the difference in plastic quality (I'm not that kind of gamer).

Thanks for your kind words!

jitjit2x wrote:
Tnx marco for the vidz.
How bout some explanation of the moves on one of the pbf games. Tnx in advance marco. Lol


Hahaha. I'll see what I can do. Match analysis is not really an easy thing to edit. I'll try, but no guarantees.
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Ed Hughes
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mnmkami wrote:


Sure, you can say that about any other base, but the way Burst invalidates attacks (by dodging) is VERY hard to compensate for. Range/Movement are VERY hard to come by, especially when compared to Priority and Stun Guard (which are things FG can give you, let alone a billion UA's).



If anything, this supports my point. If range and movement are the rarest resources, surely Drive, the one that has them, is the most valuable.

Furthermore, Force Gauge solidifies Drive's dominance- As I mentioned, whereas all other bases are defeated by two, Drive is only truly defeated by Grasp. Drive can beat grasp with a prio ante, and in the event of a prio counter-ante, a SG ante still results in a positive trade.

Drive inherently possesses the one quality the force gauge can't provide, and its stats are at the perfect level to capitalize on what the force gauge can give. Burst, on the other hand, gets no real benefit from the force gauge. Going from 1 prio to 3 is unlikely to secure the active player position, and SG 2 is unlikely to resist stun. (Shot also benefits immensely from the force gauge, for much the same reason)
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Marco Santos
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
mnmkami wrote:


Sure, you can say that about any other base, but the way Burst invalidates attacks (by dodging) is VERY hard to compensate for. Range/Movement are VERY hard to come by, especially when compared to Priority and Stun Guard (which are things FG can give you, let alone a billion UA's).



If anything, this supports my point. If range and movement are the rarest resources, surely Drive, the one that has them, is the most valuable.

Furthermore, Force Gauge solidifies Drive's dominance- As I mentioned, whereas all other bases are defeated by two, Drive is only truly defeated by Grasp. Drive can beat grasp with a prio ante, and in the event of a prio counter-ante, a SG ante still results in a positive trade.

Drive inherently possesses the one quality the force gauge can't provide, and its stats are at the perfect level to capitalize on what the force gauge can give. Burst, on the other hand, gets no real benefit from the force gauge. Going from 1 prio to 3 is unlikely to secure the active player position, and SG 2 is unlikely to resist stun. (Shot also benefits immensely from the force gauge, for much the same reason)


I mean, Burst has Range and Movement, too. And I think my point regarding the FG wasn't all the clear. It's just attacks which can't originally counter Burst can't suddenly counter them now because of FG.

This is because the stats that require you to counter Burst are not available in FG. Whether or not this affects how many bases beat it wasn't the point. The point was to emphasize the scarcity of Movement and Hit confirm.

Quote:
If range and movement are the rarest resources, surely Drive, the one that has them, is the most valuable.


I think it's very important to understand the reason I picked Burst over Drive when it comes to which base is the best. On the ubiquitous level, it is absolutely true that Drive is used more often and combos really well with lots of attacks (due to the aforementioned Speed and Hit Confirm). However, the main reason we even need hit confirm to begin with is Burst.

The base literally dictates what attacks at certain ranges can/will work. Sure, it doesn't get played that often, but, in my experience, that's because losing access to your Burst is such a big disadvantage (giving your opponent free reign to use risky low hit confirm attacks).

Burst doesn't need to be active player to work most of the time! This means that it's not reliant on stats (and fighting for Priority) to work. This means that even statistically inferior characters can usually come out on top with a Burst play simply because Burst's strengths act independently from the attack's stats.

Drive, on the other hand, depends on its Priority to carry it through. Play a slower Drive and you almost always end up with a poor attack.

In the end, in boils down to this: The main reason I find Drive so strong is because it counters Burst. So, given that, which should I call the strongest?

I personally think that it's Burst. Sure, Drive can counter it, but Burst wrecks shop through most of the other bases, being the reason Strike/Grasp MUST be played with some semblance of range. At range 3, even Shots must be played with range (although the Burst misses). Finally, even against Drive, at range 2, Burst wins unless the Drive has range.

Burst can literally beat most bases just by varying the range; totally independent of stats. That's kinda crazy.

We can say the same thing about Shot, too, since it beats all the other bases at specific ranges (Strike/Grasp at 2, Burst at 1/2, and Drive at 4). However, Shot is a stationary attack that levies on a trade most of the time, making the benefits you reap not as massive.

Burst, on the other hand, has Start of Beat decisions that allow you to look at your opponent's attack then move. If my videos have shown anything, it's that SoB decisions are basically OP. Although Burst's SoB decision isn't that massive, it's still quite powerful because you get to do it so often and gain positioning advantage while dodging.

Though, that is just me. Of course, Drive is pegged as my close second after Burst, so I can totally see why you'd say it's the best (outside of Dash, of course).
 
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