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Subject: Evil losing streak / mafiascum.net / 7Evil Mafias "Game"over rss

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Team Evil! sauron

Lately, Good has been winning a significant majority of games. According to Cassandra, it's 187-167 now, and it was pretty even about a hundred games ago, if I recall correctly.

Oh, there are notable recent victories by evil. I cite none of them; instead, hearty congratulations to all of you, you know who you are.

I take full responsibility for my part in this unfortunate trend, and I humbly apologize to all of my losing teammates.

...

What is happening?
Is it real or is it hyperbole?
Are games becoming tilted toward good?
WHO IS TO BLAME?
Should we have a consultant do a study?
Should we stick our heads in the sand?
Should we drop the bomb?

Discuss.






edit 1: this thread has been hijacked by nefarious mafia goons and is now also about the sister game "Mafia" as played at www.mafiascum.net, and also some other crap.

edit 2: "Seven Evil Mafias" Game in Progress. DAY 1. So-called rules on page 4.

edit 3: Game over.
 
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Avin Fernando
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
I've always been of the opinion that a good, well balanced game should be SLIGHTLY harder to win by evil than by good. This way, the majority of players can congratulate themselves on a job well done most of the time, and the minority can congratulate themselves even further for beating the odds and getting themselves a victory.

And you've just been losing as evil lately because I've been on the opposite team as you
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Avin wrote:
And you've just been losing as evil lately because I've been on the opposite team as you

Yeah, you and some other excellent players too. Lots of great players here.

Still, I'm only responsible for about 50% of the losses.
 
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Terri K
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Tell Royal to let me know what I am doing wrong so he doesn't keep outing me as evil!! devil
 
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Greg Payne
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
GrimJester wrote:
Are games becoming tilted toward good?

Yes. There has been a trend towards games that are "solveable"...
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
I think it's just a trend that will reverse; prehaps our protown players are better than our wolves.

BTW, evil just won a resounding victory in the Easter Story.

Now, if you would like something new in your werewolf games, head to www.mafiascum.org, brouse through the threads in the forum, read the wiki articles, and mod a game from what you see.

Trust me, it will take WW to a new level.

 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Redhawke wrote:
Now, if you would like something new in your werewolf games, head to www.mafiascum.org, brouse through the threads in the forum, read the wiki articles, and mod a game from what you see.
That hostname doesn't respond. I think you're referring to www.mafiascum.net ... at least, that's where I ended up after a Google search.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Redhawke wrote:
Trust me, it will take WW to a new level.


why not give us a few examples of the ideas to which you refer?
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Nykkel wrote:
Redhawke wrote:
Now, if you would like something new in your werewolf games, head to www.mafiascum.org, brouse through the threads in the forum, read the wiki articles, and mod a game from what you see.
That hostname doesn't respond. I think you're referring to www.mafiascum.net ... at least, that's where I ended up after a Google search.


Sorry... I mix it up all the time.

Examples, you ask?

devil

Some quotes from a few users on that site:

Quote:
Claiming roles is stupid. You're supposed to lead the town to victory by persuasing them, not by the force that comes with a claim


Quote:
But of course, we all know that the odds of a town win decrease as the number and complexity of pro-town power roles increases.


Some roles you may want to look into (note that game is themed differantly and called mafia there):

*The Godfather- The head wolf. Decides the night kill while alive. Generally has other powers too. Shows up as innocent to the cop. (seer)

*Recruiting Cultist- Not to be cunfused with the cultist used here, this guy is an in dependent faction. each night, he recruits one person to his cult. Everyone in his cult knows each other, and they win when they achieve parity with the remaining players. Cult members can PM each other. Any power roles lose thier power if recruited, and a random cultist dies if someone tries to recruit a wolf.

It is not unusuall to have seven factions in a game:

-The town
-The mafia (wolves). Maybe two or three families of them.
-Serial Killers
-Survivers
-Jesters
-Lynchers
-Cult

And the approach to the game if very differant... but it's hard to explain.

There's more, too.

I have a set-up that might be used on the site, if someone else would like to mod a game with it.



 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Now that Rubric is around, he'd be a good candidate to comment. He's played here and played at Scum, too. I know you have too Red, but Rubric is the reverse from you - he started here and went to there, so his thoughts we'd relate to easier.

I've browsed over there some, but nothing has got me working to point the Finger of Suspicion yet. I have a login at Scum and 2+2 but have yet to try out either.

Red, you haven't really played in any "Epic" BGG WW games yet, though. Carmen was probably the closest. It was pretty good. Too bad you didn't make it in the English Magic game or something like Alien.

 
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Lukas Litzsinger
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
dbmurph22 wrote:
Now that Rubric is around, he'd be a good candidate to comment. He's played here and played at Scum, too. I know you have too Red, but Rubric is the reverse from you - he started here and went to there, so his thoughts we'd relate to easier.

I've browsed over there some, but nothing has got me working to point the Finger of Suspicion yet. I have a login at Scum and 2+2 but have yet to try out either.

Red, you haven't really played in any "Epic" BGG WW games yet, though. Carmen was probably the closest. It was pretty good. Too bad you didn't make it in the English Magic game or something like Alien.



Which reminds me...when will we get A Storm of Swords?

Secret?
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
I don't have time to go into any detail at this moment, but at 2p2 the current trend is wolves completely owning the village. This may be mainly due to the fact that our villages have been completely lol (borderline retarded basically).
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Quote:
Claiming roles is stupid. You're supposed to lead the town to victory by persuasing them, not by the force that comes with a claim


hmmmm, not sure I totally agree with this. games should be designed so that claims can be countered and all reveal plans do not work.

Quote:
But of course, we all know that the odds of a town win decrease as the number and complexity of pro-town power roles increases.


I don't follow this either: the more pro-town powers in the game, the less likely a town win?

Quote:
*The Godfather- The head wolf. Decides the night kill while alive. Generally has other powers too. Shows up as innocent to the cop. (seer)

*Recruiting Cultist- Not to be cunfused with the cultist used here, this guy is an in dependent faction. each night, he recruits one person to his cult. Everyone in his cult knows each other, and they win when they achieve parity with the remaining players. Cult members can PM each other. Any power roles lose thier power if recruited, and a random cultist dies if someone tries to recruit a wolf.


we've had lots of this sort of thing as well. the bewitched series of games excels there

Quote:
It is not unusuall to have seven factions in a game:


wow, that's a new one. I don't think we have ever had a game w/ that many different factions, but we have had several where lots of players had differing victory conditions
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
dbmurph22 wrote:
Red, you haven't really played in any "Epic" BGG WW games yet, though. Carmen was probably the closest. It was pretty good. Too bad you didn't make it in the English Magic game or something like Alien.


yeah, I think that may be the case. we do have a lot of the 'epic' style games with wildly varying role sets, powers and themes.

but red, you were asking about more basic style games. do you prefer the exotic or the standard?
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
jmilum wrote:
dbmurph22 wrote:
Red, you haven't really played in any "Epic" BGG WW games yet, though. Carmen was probably the closest. It was pretty good. Too bad you didn't make it in the English Magic game or something like Alien.


yeah, I think that may be the case. we do have a lot of the 'epic' style games with wildly varying role sets, powers and themes.

but red, you were asking about more basic style games. do you prefer the exotic or the standard?


I perfer standard. I will NEVER play a bewitched game, for example. (Sorry, Javal, it's not mystyle.)

About the most complicated I like would be say, the fall of the JLA or the WW gauntlet.



 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
jmilum wrote:
Quote:
Claiming roles is stupid. You're supposed to lead the town to victory by persuasing them, not by the force that comes with a claim


hmmmm, not sure I totally agree with this. games should be designed so that claims can be countered and all reveal plans do not work.


That's why we play a lot of hidden set up.

Quote:
Quote:
But of course, we all know that the odds of a town win decrease as the number and complexity of pro-town power roles increases.


I don't follow this either: the more pro-town powers in the game, the less likely a town win?


This goes back to the entirly differant meta-game over there; see

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4875

Quote:
Quote:
*The Godfather- The head wolf. Decides the night kill while alive. Generally has other powers too. Shows up as innocent to the cop. (seer)

*Recruiting Cultist- Not to be cunfused with the cultist used here, this guy is an in dependent faction. each night, he recruits one person to his cult. Everyone in his cult knows each other, and they win when they achieve parity with the remaining players. Cult members can PM each other. Any power roles lose thier power if recruited, and a random cultist dies if someone tries to recruit a wolf.


we've had lots of this sort of thing as well. the bewitched series of games excels there


But if roles of that sort were in the "vanilla" games?

Quote:
It is not unusuall to have seven factions in a game:


wow, that's a new one. I don't think we have ever had a game w/ that many different factions, but we have had several where lots of players had differing victory conditions[/q]

Heh heh.

I forgot another, less common one:

Lovers (We've had this a lot here)

And seven factions is by no means unusual. Or more.

Edit: I have some sample set ups from the site, if anyone would like to mod a game with them.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
I wouldn't mind running a game there sometime. Having a different set of players could give another life to some of the games here that have had hidden rulesets.

The most grossly generalized difference between BGG, 2+2, and Scum I've seen is that BGG seems to attract the more logical play style. I don't have a whole lot to go own, but just by browsing I think 2+2 and Scum seem more like pure psychology and diplomacy. We have a lot of logicians and associative geniuses here.

I may be way off.

I wouldn't be against blending some of the sites. I'd play a few games there if a few would play over here. As long as they play over here.

And we have the goddess Cassy. Who has that? Huh? Huh? Sure, Scum has a Wiki....but not Cassy.

Actually Thesp played a game here on BGG recently and I'd like to see him again. I liked him.

How to they play over there? 24/hr night/days? or 24 hr days, and then 24 nights? Or different?

To me Red, it seems you like (and they play a lot at Scum) the basic WW, but with lots and lots going on. Do you thrive on chaos?
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Quote:
The most grossly generalized difference between BGG, 2+2, and Scum I've seen is that BGG seems to attract the more logical play style. I don't have a whole lot to go own, but just by browsing I think 2+2 and Scum seem more like pure psychology and diplomacy. We have a lot of logicians and associative geniuses here.


To be more specific, we have more teens than adults there. We have more adults than teens here. It makes a differance.

Quote:
How to they play over there? 24/hr night/days? or 24 hr days, and then 24 nights? Or different?


Day is until a majority of players pick someone to lynch, with a minimum length of 24 hours.

Night is until all night orders are in and have been processed by the mod, generally with a minimum of 24 hours.

Quote:
And we have the goddess Cassy. Who has that? Huh? Huh? Sure, Scum has a Wiki....but not Cassy.


A while back they tried to rip off cassie, but I don't think it worked well. That was before my time, I think. (Unless I'm confused). They still have "scumchat", which is kind of a rip off of cassie.


Quote:
To me Red, it seems you like (and they play a lot at Scum) the basic WW, but with lots and lots going on. Do you thrive on chaos?


Oh yes... *drools*

 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
jmilum wrote:
Quote:
But of course, we all know that the odds of a town win decrease as the number and complexity of pro-town power roles increases.


I don't follow this either: the more pro-town powers in the game, the less likely a town win?


I read the link. Basically "Stoofer's Law" (I'm guessing this is a series) states that. Basically he asserts that all the power roles of good will start running into each other and nullifying each other rather than evil. Fewer good roles will be able to have freer reign to nullify evil.

A couple of things. First, the good power roles over there if this is to be true have to be sort of harmful in nature. He mentioned vigilante and "roleblocker". Both of these hurt a ANY role, instead of just applying to an evil role (ie seer) or being a help (ie bodyguard).

His scenario makes sense. With these kind of roles that target other roles and a higher percentage of good roles compared to evil, then it's just numbers. Vigilante targets anyone, but there are more goods than bads. I keep this in mind when making a vig role. It may hurt the good side. But I don't think this scenario analysis can be made into the overarching statement he asserted.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
Ah, they don't do the plurality thing there.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
This thread has gotten nicely off topic.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot lately
dkromm wrote:
I don't have time to go into any detail at this moment, but at 2p2 the current trend is wolves completely owning the village. This may be mainly due to the fact that our villages have been completely lol (borderline retarded basically).

Truth. I don't know what we could've done with ST. CYOA was a huge reversal, but overall.

Maybe it's just new players or something. Blinders suck.

I suppose games are just cyclical. I think wolves here don't metagame enough. Wolves don't respect posting reads as much. Wolves don't throw wolves under the bus enough.

Also, claims are awesome for village. Jmilum is right, obviously. If your game is designed so that mass claiming works, then -_-
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot / HIJACK: also re: mafiascum.
Re: Mafiascum

Dude, you totally hijacked my thread!! Start your own thread!

Just kidding. This discussion has been waiting to happen for some time. Here is as good a place as any, I suppose.

Uncle Grimmy to the rescue

I used to play there too. I played in a dozen or more games at mafiascum last spring and summer. (I am "Joker" over there, but not active anymore).

I have tremendous respect for many of the folks over there, but I have found I prefer BGG-style. Basically three reasons:

1. Writing. A larger percentage of the players and mods here write well. At mafiascum: Mr. Flay, MeMe. Here: many. More who do than don't.

2. Community. Folks here are a bit nicer to each other. There's plenty of vicious attacks here, but they're done in a spirit of fun (well, except maybe by agnespoodle...). There, snarkiness and one-upmanship seem to be the order of the day.

3. Pace. I prefer the quick pace here. Daily plurality lynches here, week-or-more majority lynches there. Over there, it takes a majority of players to lynch. The typical game is a "mini" which starts with 12 players (3 mafia), which means that "day 1" continues until seven players vote on one person. Also, it's not uncommon for at least a couple players to post only 1-2 times per day. Put it together and it can take weeks for a lynch. I found myself forgetting what was going on, having to re-read over and over again. It just got tiring.

...

That said, I reiterate that there is some fantastic stuff going on over there. Some of the scummers are incredibly experienced, having played hundreds of games (well hmm yeah we have some of those too ). The site has been going since, what, 2003? and its ancestor grey labyrinth (?) goes back to 2000 or so. They have a very nice wiki and a cool Flash tutorial on roles (props to mikeburnfire) and a bunch of other stuff. They have a very active community and I highly recommend anyone who is interested to check them out. They have a really cool "newbie" format 7-player game which eases you into things.

...

Hmm, maybe we should do an invitational cross-pollination thing. Get some of their players to play a BGG-style game here, and some of us go over there.

Whaddaya think, murph?
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot / HIJACK: also re: mafiascum.
dbmurph22 wrote:
And we have the goddess Cassy.

Oh yes. Cassie is absolutely divine.
 
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Re: Evil has been losing a lot / HIJACK: also re: mafiascum.
Great thoughts Grim. Thanks. In browsing the site and old games I think I actually saw posts by "Joker". I'd be interested in helping some cross-pollination, sure.

On a side note I think I'm going to hijack this thread in a third direction, so you can't fit it in the subject heading anymore.

So, what do you guys make of Don Imus?
 
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