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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Steal Action - Spending Clue Tokens during Opposed Test rss

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First rules query I've had after reading the LtP & skimming bits of the Rules Reference. I feel like I must have overlooked something that will become obvious during play, since I'm sure this situation will come up as soon as an investigator starts acting suspiciously!

A) I can't determine whether either investigator is permitted to spend Clue tokens (or use any other effects they possess) during the "Opposed Test" part of the "Steal Action", in order to convert investigation results on the dice to success results.

B) Assuming they can, it doesn't seem to indicate who rolls & converts investigations => successes first.

Or perhaps both investigators have to roll & count investigations/successes before either gets to convert any results (sounds clumsy, since you'd have to remember the first player's results)

And I'm not sure who would choose how many dice to convert first...
- active investigator goes first, followed by chosen investigator
- chosen investigator goes first, followed by active investigator
- each investigator takes turns spending a clue or activating some effect, until both pass

Or perhaps it is impossible to convert any dice during this Opposed Test? But I can't see anything preventing it.

Rules Reference, pg. 17 wrote:
STEAL ACTION
An investigator can perform the steal action to take possessions from another investigator in his space. He does so by following these steps:
1. Choose Target: The active investigator chooses another investigator in his space.
2. Opposed Test: The active investigator chooses strength, agility, or observation. Then both investigators test the chosen skill.
3. Resolve Theft: The active investigator may take one possession from the chosen investigator for each success result he rolled in excess of the chosen investigator’s test result.
• If the chosen investigator’s test result equals or exceeds the active investigator’s test result, the active investigator forfeits this action without taking any possessions.


My current thinking...

Based on the way the Push Action works, I'd be inclined to make the chosen investigator roll & convert any dice first, to set a "target" for the active investigator.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

EDIT: ANSWER FROM FFG... thanks!
Nikki Valens @ FFG wrote:
The opposed tests are resolved simultaneously. Each step of the opposed tests are resolved together and all information is known to both investigators. Both investigators determine dice pool and are able to use effects to add additional dice to their respective pools. Then dice are rolled (results are recorded if there are not enough dice). Then both investigators may use any effects to reroll or convert dice results. These effects aren't resolved in any particular order and all information is known to both investigators. The window of opportunity to use these effects does not close for either investigator until both have used all effects that they wish. Finally, the results are determined and the next step of the steal action is resolved.

Thanks for playing!
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Hate answering myself, but it's just occurred to me that (unless I have missed something) this is going to come down to this "catch-all" bit in the Rules Reference... as usually seems to be the case with these kinds of queries that I have!

Rules Reference, pg. 2 wrote:
CONFLICTS
During the game, some game effects may lead to conflicts within the game or between the investigators.
^ It is possible for a game effect to have more than one possible outcome. In such a case, investigators as a group determine the outcome of that effect.
^ It is possible for multiple game effects to occur at the same time. In such a case, investigators as a group determine the order in which those effects are resolved.
^ It is possible that investigators have differing intentions and goals. If this prevents investigators from reaching a decision as a group, the decision is determined by an investigator chosen at random.


EDIT: Meaning, if there is a traitor among us & the group doesn't reach an agreement, we'll end up having to randomly determine one investigator to choose who rolls & converts successes first.
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Alexander Steinbach
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Good catch. I think the rules as currently written do not fully cover this. In my opinion it would be unfair to have "the group" decide who goes first as that will almost always be decided in favour of the non-insane investigators.

I think that the best approach for the time being is to use the same mechanic used in the push action. Meaning that the player being stolen from goes first and sets the bar for the thief.
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Yeah, I think that's what we'll probably go with (same as Push).

FWIW for any other disagreements that may come up, I would interpret the last part of that "Conflicts" section to mean that, if even one ("insane") person in the group doesn't agree with everyone else, then it should be decided by a randomly-selected investigator.
 
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Matt Krakoff
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Maybe treat it like attacks in X-wing:

The Attacker (Thief) rolls and declares token usage (focus in xwing or clue tokens here to create additional successes) then;

The Defender gets to roll and decide to use tokens to offset successes if they choose to.

This seems to make sense thematically as well. Someone tries to steal from you and you would be surprised. The thief would be deciding how hard they try before you even knew you were being attacked. Your response as the defender would be a surprise to the thief as well (little did they know that you are a black belt Thus using clue tokens to represent your additional resistance to the attack.

My 2 cents.
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Jason Horner
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I don't believe the rules specifically cover this case.

You could let force the attacker to declare first, randomly choose an investigator to decide, or have both investigators roll in secret and decide how many clues to use before the result is declared.
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Well, that was quicker than I've ever had a rules query answered! Thanks FFG

The official answer is pretty close to the one I was least expecting!
You each roll (recording each investigator's roll if needed), then it's pretty much a free-for-all, until both investigators are done converting results.

Here you go...

Rules Query wrote:
Hi,

In Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition, I can't seem to find answers to these questions in the rules...

A) During the "Opposed Test" part of the "Steal Action", can the investigators involved spend Clue tokens (or use any other effects they possess), in order to convert investigation results on the dice to success results?

B) Assuming they can, who rolls & converts their investigations to successes first? The rules just say that "both investigators test". Does the chosen investigator roll & convert first, in order to set a "target" for the active investigator (in a similar method to resolving a "Push Action")? Or is the sequence of events resolved using the "Conflicts" rules in some fashion?

Many thanks!


Nikki Valens @ FFG wrote:
The opposed tests are resolved simultaneously. Each step of the opposed tests are resolved together and all information is known to both investigators. Both investigators determine dice pool and are able to use effects to add additional dice to their respective pools. Then dice are rolled (results are recorded if there are not enough dice). Then both investigators may use any effects to reroll or convert dice results. These effects aren't resolved in any particular order and all information is known to both investigators. The window of opportunity to use these effects does not close for either investigator until both have used all effects that they wish. Finally, the results are determined and the next step of the steal action is resolved.

Thanks for playing!


EDIT: Thinking about it again, now that I see the reference to "re-rolling" dice, I guess this makes the most sense. It didn't occur to me (having not played yet) that re-rolls would be possible, so if one of the investigators involved in the Steal action triggers such an effect, it could be a bit of a gamble/push-your-luck type of situation (depending on how many dice you might be forced to re-roll, or what the cost of triggering that effect is).
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Alexander Steinbach
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Interesting...

Now I am just wondering why it doesn't work like that with the push-action. Why is that any different? Can't you re-roll dice in that case?
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Vardaine wrote:
Interesting...

Now I am just wondering why it doesn't work like that with the push-action. Why is that any different? Can't you re-roll dice in that case?

Good question. When pushing a monster, there's no need (Test Difficulty = brawn value), so it would over-complicate the rules there. But yeah, RAW seem clear that the Test Difficulty is set first (by other investigator), which seems at odds with this answer.

Can't think of any reasons why the difference for the moment... maybe once we've played.
 
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I wrote:
A follow-up query, if you don't mind...

Is a Push Action handled differently? The rules say the investigator being pushed sets the Test Difficulty before the active investigator starts his Test. So what is the sequence of events there if either/both investigators want to use Clue tokens or other abilities to convert or re-roll dice? Is there any particular reason you're aware of for any differences between handling this with Push & Steal actions?

Thanks again for your help!


Nikki Valens @ FFG wrote:
The steps for resolving a push action are resolved in the order shown in the Rule Reference.

The test difficulty is determined before the investigator who is performing the action resolved her test.

Thanks for playing!
 
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