$20.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Mage Knight Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: expose - bank the ranged attack? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't have enough ranged attack to take out an enemy with cold resistance.

I also have Shield Bash (blue card) with boosted effect Block 5... blocked enemy gets Armor -1 for each point of block higher than needed.

Typically I cannot use the Armor -1 part of this effect because the enemies cold resistance protects it from this effect.

If I play Expose - Target enemy loses all fortifications and resistances this combat with Ranged Attack +2. I remove the cold resistance, and now can use the full effect of Shield Bash.

My question... Even though I played the expose card in the block phase, does the +2 Ranged attack carry over into my attack phase?

Thanks.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Humulus Lupulus
United States
Andover
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
I don't have enough ranged attack to take out an enemy with cold resistance.

I also have Shield Bash (blue card) with boosted effect Block 5... blocked enemy gets Armor -1 for each point of block higher than needed.

Typically I cannot use the Armor -1 part of this effect because the enemies cold resistance protects it from this effect.

If I play Expose - Target enemy loses all fortifications and resistances this combat with Ranged Attack +2. I remove the cold resistance, and now can use the full effect of Shield Bash.

My question... Even though I played the expose card in the block phase, does the +2 Ranged attack carry over into my attack phase?

Thanks.


Yes, it is carried over as Attack 2. Nope.

Edit: Thanks for including the card wording in your post. It helps us answer your question without having to look it up ourselves. Not enough people do this.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Jorgensen
Denmark
flag msg tools
Desiderata wrote:
dlikos wrote:
I don't have enough ranged attack to take out an enemy with cold resistance.

I also have Shield Bash (blue card) with boosted effect Block 5... blocked enemy gets Armor -1 for each point of block higher than needed.

Typically I cannot use the Armor -1 part of this effect because the enemies cold resistance protects it from this effect.

If I play Expose - Target enemy loses all fortifications and resistances this combat with Ranged Attack +2. I remove the cold resistance, and now can use the full effect of Shield Bash.

My question... Even though I played the expose card in the block phase, does the +2 Ranged attack carry over into my attack phase?

Thanks.


Yes, it is carried over as Attack 2.

Edit: Thanks for including the card wording in your post. It helps us answer your question without having to look it up ourselves. Not enough people do this.


Really? Where does it say that? I understand it that the attack doesn't carry over. You have to use attack in the phase it is generated.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Humulus Lupulus
United States
Andover
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Randor20 wrote:
Desiderata wrote:
dlikos wrote:
I don't have enough ranged attack to take out an enemy with cold resistance.

I also have Shield Bash (blue card) with boosted effect Block 5... blocked enemy gets Armor -1 for each point of block higher than needed.

Typically I cannot use the Armor -1 part of this effect because the enemies cold resistance protects it from this effect.

If I play Expose - Target enemy loses all fortifications and resistances this combat with Ranged Attack +2. I remove the cold resistance, and now can use the full effect of Shield Bash.

My question... Even though I played the expose card in the block phase, does the +2 Ranged attack carry over into my attack phase?

Thanks.


Yes, it is carried over as Attack 2.

Edit: Thanks for including the card wording in your post. It helps us answer your question without having to look it up ourselves. Not enough people do this.


Really? Where does it say that? I understand it that the attack doesn't carry over. You have to use attack in the phase it is generated.

Sorry, but I can't find in the rules where it states this, but I understood effects generated in combat (i.e. spell in this case) to be usable as needed. Of course, the player uses the entire attack together. So, he either uses up to 2 Ranged attack in the ranged/siege phase OR uses it as regular Attack 2 in the attack phase. He cannot use 1 Ranged attack in the ranged phase and get Attack 1 carried over to the attack phase.

Once combat starts, any move points left over from the move phase are lost, but combat effects are in effect in the entire combat phase.

Disregard. I concede this as incorrect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chuckhazard
United States
Fayetteville
Arkansas
flag msg tools
I'm FREEeeee..ee..e..e...
mbmbmbmbmb
Too lazy to dig out the rulebooks but I think this changed from the expansion... Was really hoping a guru would show before now and lay down the facts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Humulus Lupulus
United States
Andover
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This is taken from the Examples section on p. 9 of the LL rulebook:
Quote:
In the Ranged and Siege Attack phase, you play the stronger effect of Agility (note this card was changed in this expansion).
It gives you Move 4 and a chance to convert Move
points into Ranged Attack (2:1) or Attack (1:1). Then you play
the stronger effect of March, for another Move 4. You convert
6 of these points to Ranged Attack 3. You may spend the remaining
2 Move points later during the combat, for example
to reduce the attack of a Cumbersome enemy by 2, or for Attack
2 during the Attack phase. If you do not use them, they
are wasted. You cannot spend the Move points to move or
explore.

I think this is a fair comparison to the effects generated by the Expose spell.
Unfair comparison, as the rules for move are different here than they are for attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magnesi
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
No, you can't. The rulebook is clear, the combat has different phases and blocked/attack cards must be played in the appropriate time. You can play cards that modify rules (as tremor) at any time, and the rules last for the entire combat, but there is no such a rule for unused attack.

The rulebook says something like "play your attacks, sum them up and compare the value with the enemy armor". It doesn't say "sum values of some already generated attacks".
Edit:
Desiderata wrote:

I think this is a fair comparison to the effects generated by the Expose spell.

The rulebook also says (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Attack and Block effects work in a different way now. The points they provide are stacked, but they cannot be spent freely or saved for later use.

These effects have to be played at certain moments (when blocking a single enemy attack, or when attacking a group of one or more enemies), and contribute only to this Attack or Block. Surplus points are wasted, they do not transfer even to the next Attack or Block during the same combat (unless explicitly stated otherwise – for example Burning Shield or Shield of Fallen Kings).
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sounds like it's a big NO to my question. As it turns out, I had an extra attack point anyhow, so in my game it was a moot question. But one I asked because as I was puzzling out the hand and turn, I thought it might save me a card atleast, in the end it didn't. But, I'm glad I asked, because with the answers to the thread, sounds like a discussion worth having.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Cochran
United States
Costa Mesa
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
Sounds like it's a big NO to my question. As it turns out, I had an extra attack point anyhow, so in my game it was a moot question. But one I asked because as I was puzzling out the hand and turn, I thought it might save me a card atleast, in the end it didn't. But, I'm glad I asked, because with the answers to the thread, sounds like a discussion worth having.


Yeah, it's a timing issue. Obviously in the situation in your OP the removal of resistances is something you want in the Block phase so you wouldn't necessarily want to wait until the Attack phase to play the card, but it's an option if you DID need those extra points. Sometimes part of a card effect is important enough to use even if you can't actually use all of the card's effects...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iain
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
Sounds like it's a big NO to my question. As it turns out, I had an extra attack point anyhow, so in my game it was a moot question. But one I asked because as I was puzzling out the hand and turn, I thought it might save me a card atleast, in the end it didn't. But, I'm glad I asked, because with the answers to the thread, sounds like a discussion worth having.


Hi Dan.

I would have to agree with the assessment of others on the threat. Ranged/siege attack was generated in the ranged/siege phase therefore this couldn't be carried forward to the regular attack phase.

You have come across one of many 'situational' scenarios. For example if you weren't concerned about the shield bash you could have saved the card until the regular attack phase - or as noted if you had enough ranged attack you could have utilised the full benefit of the card. Unfortunately even the best cards can be rendered less useful in the wrong situation or with the wrong hand
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Likos
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Gribbon wrote:
dlikos wrote:
Sounds like it's a big NO to my question. As it turns out, I had an extra attack point anyhow, so in my game it was a moot question. But one I asked because as I was puzzling out the hand and turn, I thought it might save me a card atleast, in the end it didn't. But, I'm glad I asked, because with the answers to the thread, sounds like a discussion worth having.


Hi Dan.

I would have to agree with the assessment of others on the threat. Ranged/siege attack was generated in the ranged/siege phase therefore this couldn't be carried forward to the regular attack phase.

You have come across one of many 'situational' scenarios. For example if you weren't concerned about the shield bash you could have saved the card until the regular attack phase - or as noted if you had enough ranged attack you could have utilised the full benefit of the card. Unfortunately even the best cards can be rendered less useful in the wrong situation or with the wrong hand


But I don't think I would be able to shield bash armor down during the ranged phase.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge
Switzerland
Lausanne
Vaud
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
But I don't think I would be able to shield bash armor down during the ranged phase.
No, you cannot play block effects during the Ranged & Siege attack phase. As you cannot play attack effects during the block phase.

Note that you can use the ranged attack provided by Expose to attack another enemy token (you have to stack your other attacks and kill the other enemy immediately though), as long as you do it in the Ranged & Siege Attack phase. As said, any leftover attack is lost in the block phase.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Cochran
United States
Costa Mesa
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
dlikos wrote:
But I don't think I would be able to shield bash armor down during the ranged phase.


No, but if you want to use Shield Bash's extra effect on an enemy with Ice Resistance, you need to disable the resistance during the ranged phase.

Edit: Actually, I suppose you COULD cast Expose during the Block phase prior to using Shield Bash since there's no phase restriction on the card, you just wouldn't actually generate the Ranged Attack at all (as opposed to generating them and possibly not using them in the Ranged Attack phase)...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Humulus Lupulus
United States
Andover
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
syzygia wrote:
No, you can't. The rulebook is clear, the combat has different phases and blocked/attack cards must be played in the appropriate time. You can play cards that modify rules (as tremor) at any time, and the rules last for the entire combat, but there is no such a rule for unused attack.

Okay, I guess I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Picon wrote:
dlikos wrote:
But I don't think I would be able to shield bash armor down during the ranged phase.
No, you cannot play block effects during the Ranged & Siege attack phase. As you cannot play attack effects during the block phase.

Note that you can use the ranged attack provided by Expose to attack another enemy token (you have to stack your other attacks and kill the other enemy immediately though), as long as you do it in the Ranged & Siege Attack phase. As said, any leftover attack is lost in the block phase.


I almost got my mind around this, but I want to be sure of one detail. I think Leftover attack is not lost when entering the block phase. It's lost inmediately after your next attack.

Quote:
. These effects have to be played at certain moments (when
blocking a single enemy attack, or when attacking a group of
one or more enemies), and contribute only to this Attack or
Block
. Surplus points are wasted, they do not transfer even to
the next Attack or Block during the same combat.


So, I play Expose on an enemy with armor 5. I think I'm not allowed to use a different Ranged Attack 5 on that enemy and save the 2 ranged from expose for a different RA. If I'm reading it right

I think you're saying the same with "stack your other attacks and kill the other enemy immediately though", but I'm rereading the rules and recent threads and getting more and more confused. Many people insist and explain rightly that expose doesn't stack for the next attack phase, but they don't get into this.

But then again, I could stack more RA over those 2, then play whatever spells I want and then use all those points for a RA, since attack effects stack and aren't lost until you attack, don't they?

Sorry, but MK is difficult for newcomers and this thread and your reply is the closest I could get to clarify my question.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarad Bond
United States
Anchorage
Alaska
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
(thanks, Gabriel, for setting me straight.)

zosete wrote:
I think Leftover attack is not lost when entering the block phase.
It is definitely lost when leaving the Range phase.
Okay, yeah, it is lost immediately if you do not use it on the target you are attacking/playing the card on.

zosete wrote:
So, I play Expose on an enemy with armor 5. I think I'm not allowed to use a different Ranged Attack 5 and save the 2 ranged from expose for a different RA.
You are absolutely allowed to use whichever Ranged Attack on whichever enemy you want. You can use Expose to ignore fortifications on enemy A, use the RA 2 on enemy B, and your RA 5 (from a different card) on enemy A.
I stand corrected. According to the rulebook (page 7&8, Ranged Phase), you pick your target(s) first. Then you can choose one of them to ignore fortifications. If none of the other selected targets have fortifications, you can use any ranged or siege attacks. If you meet or beat the total value of all armor, they are defeated and you lose any extra. There is no such thing as "saving" or "banking". You either defeat them or you don't and your cards only apply to that group of targets.

The phases in combat are:

Range
Block
Assign Damage
Attack

Edit: And that is why you need to follow the outline in the rulebook. You could think of it like a pool, but just to get cards in the right order. This kind of thinking would be dangerous, though. You cannot bank that Range Attack 2 for a different enemy. I'm sure I've been playing this wrong. I hope this corrected advice (and rulebook reference) helps.

When you play a card in a given phase, it helps to think of it like you have a pool of Range Attack X, Ice Block Y, Fire Siege Attack Z, etc... effects. The pool only applies to Attack and Block. At the end of any given phase, that pool empties. You will really need to check the combat section of the rulebook as you go through a combat and double check my assertion on this for nuances, but I think it is accurate (after my dozens of plays). Go slowly - it is all there in the outline.

You can apply any Attack X or Block Y to any enemy regardless of the "card" or "ability" it came from, following the rules of combat (correct phase, grouping enemies, etc). Expose allows you to ignore fortifications of one enemy, but you do NOT need to use the associated Range Attack on the same one. If you do not use that Range Attack during the phase in which you play it, however, you will not be able to use it in the Attack phase later. It is not unusual to play expose for the effect and lose the Range Attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriel Honore
France
Berzé la ville
flag msg tools
mb
logris wrote:
zosete wrote:
I think Leftover attack is not lost when entering the block phase.
It is definitely lost when leaving the Range phase.


You did not quote the last part. He said it's lost immediately after the attack, and that's the case.

logris wrote:
When you play a card in a given phase, it helps to think of it like you have a pool of Range Attack X, Ice Block Y, Fire Siege Attack Z, etc... effects. The pool only applies to Attack and Block. At the end of any given phase, that pool empties. You will really need to check the combat section of the rulebook as you go through a combat and double check my assertion on this for nuances, but I think it is accurate (after my dozens of plays). Go slowly - it is all there in the outline.


It is not so.
When targeting an enemy or a group of enemy, you may play as many attacks as you like. If that help you may think of different pools, but then all get emptied before you start your next attack. Not a single (attack) point may be carried over from an attack to the next one. Other effects carry on.
The same applies for blocks.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
logris wrote:
(thanks, Gabriel, for setting me straight.)

[q="zosete"]I think Leftover attack is not lost when entering the block phase.
It is definitely lost when leaving the Range phase.
Okay, yeah, it is lost immediately if you do not use it on the target you are attacking/playing the card on.

zosete wrote:
So, I play Expose on an enemy with armor 5. I think I'm not allowed to use a different Ranged Attack 5 and save the 2 ranged from expose for a different RA.
You are absolutely allowed to use whichever Ranged Attack on whichever enemy you want. You can use Expose to ignore fortifications on enemy A, use the RA 2 on enemy B, and your RA 5 (from a different card) on enemy A.

Thanks for your help, both of you. but I think that part you strike through is actually right. (At least if you waste those 2 points first and don't save them)

You can target enemy A with the expose effect and target enemy B (if legal) with the ranged attack 2 (and more cards on top of it) as long as you don't "bank" any attack points for later. That was actually part of my question but my post was already too long.

Let's give it a twist. I play expose effect on A. Then I play "enemy gets polymorphed into a cat. Ranged attack 4". I choose enemy B for the cat effect.

If I understand right, now I can use my RA 6 (ra2 expose + Ra4 my made up spell) on enemy A, B, C or any combination as long as it is legal.

(Check "immediate effects" in LL) Attack points do stack. The "extra" effects are resolved immediately, but the only thing that can get me those RA points spent is making an actual ranged attack. That is what I get from the rules and what I'm a bit unsure about.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarad Bond
United States
Anchorage
Alaska
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
You can target enemy A with the expose effect and target enemy B (if legal) with the ranged attack 2 (and more cards on top of it) as long as you don't "bank" any attack points for later. That was actually part of my question but my post was already too long.

I think this is correct, but order of operations is important. Going back to the original rulebook, you first select some group of enemies. Then you play Range Attack cards, such as Expose, and stack your Range Attacks until the sum total equals or exceeds the group's combined armor. However, when you play expose, you could target an enemy that is not part of your group to lose fortifications and resistances, but your Range Attack has to be applied to your current group.

zosete wrote:
Let's give it a twist. I play expose effect on A. Then I play "enemy gets polymorphed into a cat. Ranged attack 4". I choose enemy B for the cat effect.

If I understand right, now I can use my RA 6 (ra2 expose + Ra4 my made up spell) on enemy A, B, C or any combination as long as it is legal.
This is how I think your scenario would have to go down:

1. You choose enemy C (or C&B, or whatever) as your first group.
2. Play Expose. Target enemy A to lose resistance and fortification.
3. Play Polymorph. Target enemy B to become a cat.
4. You have RA:2 from Expose + RA:4 from Polymorph = RA:6
4a. Let's say the RA:6 is an effective attack. Does enemy C (or C&B...) have a combined armor of 6 or less? If so, discard them.

5. Choose another group of enemies...


You can play expose at any time, it seems, but you will lose the Range Attack portion unless it can apply to the current group you are attacking.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I keep forgetting spell cards have symbols. Expose is an attack card, so it has to be played after you choose a target (enemy/group), as you said. My sequence was wrong.

Now, since expose says "target enemy loses...", does that mean that the effect has to apply to one of the enemies of the group I chose in the first step?

Almost there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jarad Bond
United States
Anchorage
Alaska
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
zosete wrote:
I keep forgetting spell cards have symbols. Expose is an attack card, so it has to be played after you choose a target (enemy/group), as you said. My sequence was wrong.

Now, since expose says "target enemy loses...", does that mean that the effect has to apply to one of the enemies of the group I chose in the first step?

Almost there.
The way I understand it, you can play Expose during any part of the combat (even blocking?) and use its special effect of causing a target to lose fortification and resistances, but for the Range Attack 2 to count toward defeating an enemy, you must play it after you have selected a group of enemies to attack. The crossed swords symbol in the upper left corner means that you must play it during combat, but not necessarily in any particular phase of combat.

I also believe that you can target any enemy present in the entire combat for the special effect. The Range Attack 2 must be applied toward your chosen enemies, if you wish to use it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Spain
Coruña
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
logris wrote:
zosete wrote:
I keep forgetting spell cards have symbols. Expose is an attack card, so it has to be played after you choose a target (enemy/group), as you said. My sequence was wrong.

Now, since expose says "target enemy loses...", does that mean that the effect has to apply to one of the enemies of the group I chose in the first step?

Almost there.
The way I understand it, you can play Expose during any part of the combat (even blocking?) and use its special effect of causing a target to lose fortification and resistances, but for the Range Attack 2 to count toward defeating an enemy, you must play it after you have selected a group of enemies to attack. The crossed swords symbol in the upper left corner means that you must play it during combat, but not necessarily in any particular phase of combat.

I also believe that you can target any enemy present in the entire combat for the special effect. The Range Attack 2 must be applied toward your chosen enemies, if you wish to use it.


I agree with you in the important things, although you shouldn't be able to use Expose in the block phase. Also, you play special cards whenever you want, but combat marked cards only after targetting enemies.
"These effects [attack and block] have to be played at certain moments (when blocking a single enemy attack, or when attacking a group of one or more enemies), and contribute only to this Attack or Block"

In short, I think you can't target one enemy with Expose effect and use Ranged 2 on another one.

Yes, you could target two enemies (A,B) for your attack, then cast Expose and play the removal effect on A. But then you must use Ranged 2 on both A and B, because "To make a successful attack, the total Attack value has to equal or exceed the total Armor values of all targeted enemies". . Jorge said this just a couple posts ago but I couldn't understand it then. It's a technicism, anyway. The intent of exposing A and using RA2+X other attacks for B only is clearly not allowed.

So the other "recent" thread I found about it is wrong. It seems clear now... It's all about selecting targets first and use and resolve combat effects for those targets.

BUT for the fringe case of the puppet master skill, that seems to override all these basic combat rules and is driving me crazy. That thread I'll necro another day zombie. Thanks everyone for your help and patience

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.