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Mech Command RTS» Forums » General

Subject: Why not re-launch? rss

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Tim Bailey
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Why don't they just re-launch this campaign? How many backers do they need to lose before they consider that?
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Terence Lee
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It says "This project has been cancelled" in their game description.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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tlee33 wrote:
It says "This project has been cancelled" in their game description.


Doesn't say that on their still-running kickstarter, though.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/223137030/armored-coret...

Link still has the now-dropped AC name on, and the "weapon pack 1" source pics are from Armored Core (although the supposed piledriver is the Kestrel gatling gun for some reason?), but they're otherwise up to date on removing the AC-themed content.

EDIT: As for OP's question, they're probably hoping to milk as many people as possible who pledged and haven't bothered to look back at the campaign since, and still don't KNOW the AC name has been dropped. Not sure how smart that is while promising full refunds throughout the project, but it's their campaign...

I agree that restarting would be a sensible plan at this stage.
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Duncan Idaho
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The mass exodus shows that people either don't like the name change, or don't like what they've learned about the company. Both of those are going to be worse in a relaunch, so they're banking on a chunk of people not backing out because they don't read KS updates.
 
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Stuart Holttum
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There was clearly a big rush due to the Armored Core tie-in. There were no add-ons, so likely many backers pledged the amount they wanted, and then have ignored it since.

Bad Crow know full well that they would get nowhere near their current total if they restarted the campaign. And they know from Serpents Tongue how little power backers have once the campaign finishes, and how little Kickstarter themselves give a toss, so they have nothing to lose.
 
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Tim Bailey
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Another thing that's just crazy right now.....

125 Early Bird Raven Bundles are available, yet 98 people still have the full price Raven Bundle locked in, so right there's almost 100 backers not paying attention, so backed under false pretenses most likely.

Similar situation with the Ultimate Bundles. Those are available right now as well, but people are locked in at the higher tiers. So just at a glance you've got about 200 backers who simply aren't paying attention - not to mention how many got in early and also aren't paying attention.

I still check this KS every couple days and it's losing money left and right. Wonder if they'll start doing stretch goals in the opposite direction.
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Oblivion Doll
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Crabbok wrote:
Wonder if they'll start doing stretch goals in the opposite direction.


Got to admit, I laughed way too hard at this...
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Trent DePonte
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Crabbok wrote:
Another thing that's just crazy right now.....

125 Early Bird Raven Bundles are available, yet 98 people still have the full price Raven Bundle locked in, so right there's almost 100 backers not paying attention, so backed under false pretenses most likely.

Similar situation with the Ultimate Bundles. Those are available right now as well, but people are locked in at the higher tiers. So just at a glance you've got about 200 backers who simply aren't paying attention - not to mention how many got in early and also aren't paying attention.

I still check this KS every couple days and it's losing money left and right. Wonder if they'll start doing stretch goals in the opposite direction.


Last time I checked the campaign the main page didn't actually list any stretch goals. They did unlock the Behometh "early" (it was supposed to unlock at 500K, they're not going to get to even half of that now) and a weapon pack was unlocked at 175K according to an update.

They said that the stretch goals already unlocked will not be relocked if they fall under the threshold which is a really stupid decision financially (although necessary to avoid losing even more backers) as the money to produce those items is now going to have to come from what otherwise would have been profit.

Of course if those stretch goals end up costing more then the profit they were going to make the entire project could easily go down the tubes as it starts losing money.
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
Last time I checked the campaign the main page didn't actually list any stretch goals. They did unlock the Behometh "early" (it was supposed to unlock at 500K, they're not going to get to even half of that now) and a weapon pack was unlocked at 175K according to an update.

They said that the stretch goals already unlocked will not be relocked if they fall under the threshold which is a really stupid decision financially (although necessary to avoid losing even more backers) as the money to produce those items is now going to have to come from what otherwise would have been profit.

Of course if those stretch goals end up costing more then the profit they were going to make the entire project could easily go down the tubes as it starts losing money.


The stretch goals are listed strangely, but they ARE there (and always were) - next one to be hit will be at $250k (had been higher prior to the name-change, they pulled ALL the stretch goal targets back soon after removing the AC branding and seeing how it was being received).

Also, assuming they actually are saving money by not paying licensing fees, there's a pretty good chance that the savings will make up for the loss in pledges.

Of course, with the vast amounts of optimism on display from the backers who are already talking, I'm quite curious to see how that final 48 hour push turns out
 
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Trent DePonte
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obliviondoll wrote:
FellintoOblivion wrote:
Last time I checked the campaign the main page didn't actually list any stretch goals. They did unlock the Behometh "early" (it was supposed to unlock at 500K, they're not going to get to even half of that now) and a weapon pack was unlocked at 175K according to an update.

They said that the stretch goals already unlocked will not be relocked if they fall under the threshold which is a really stupid decision financially (although necessary to avoid losing even more backers) as the money to produce those items is now going to have to come from what otherwise would have been profit.

Of course if those stretch goals end up costing more then the profit they were going to make the entire project could easily go down the tubes as it starts losing money.


The stretch goals are listed strangely, but they ARE there (and always were) - next one to be hit will be at $250k (had been higher prior to the name-change, they pulled ALL the stretch goal targets back soon after removing the AC branding and seeing how it was being received).

Also, assuming they actually are saving money by not paying licensing fees, there's a pretty good chance that the savings will make up for the loss in pledges.

Of course, with the vast amounts of optimism on display from the backers who are already talking, I'm quite curious to see how that final 48 hour push turns out


I'm still dubious the whole ordeal of dropping the IP is as smooth as they want us to believe. I have a hard time believing FROM is just willing to let them drop it without requiring some sort of payment.
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
I'm still dubious the whole ordeal of dropping the IP is as smooth as they want us to believe. I have a hard time believing FROM is just willing to let them drop it without requiring some sort of payment.


I'm totally on board with that concern - but we don't know the details of their license agreement, and in most cases, NOT having the license works out to be cheaper than having it, and by a significant margin, too. That saving comes at the cost of sales (and in this type of situation, pledges), but it MIGHT be enough to cover the few stretch goals they'd already unlocked.

I honestly can't say how the money side of things really is playing out, since that's all behind closed doors right now. There's definitely a lot of red flags all over this, though - I'm not going to argue against that.
 
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Stuart Holttum
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It's increasingly clear that Bad Crow Games weren't ready for this Kickstarter to be launched. Still no rules posted, with just promises of "soon".

It's also clear that they don't have the confidence in their game for it to stand alone on its own merits without the AC name to draw people in, else why not pause for a month or so to get their ducks in a row and relaunch when everything is ready to show off?

Worst case - they knew the licence was about to disappear, and launched before they were ready to generate interest based in the name rather than the merits of the game. Best case, they have learned nothing from the ST campaign, preferring to bull on in the face of problems, hoping that a couple of good ideas equals a decent game.

VERY glad I dropped my pledge to this. I'm sure it will still fund (I predict about $160k in the end), followed by many requests for refunds from backers suddenly finding it wasn't AC any more. The resultant drain will lead to the base games getting shipped with no expansions, followed by more requests for refunds which in the end will not be honoured as BCG will have run out of cash. Ultimately, it will all go as quiet as Serpent Tongue did.....u till the next brother pops up with HIS bright idea.
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Trent DePonte
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Stu Holttum wrote:
It's increasingly clear that Bad Crow Games weren't ready for this Kickstarter to be launched. Still no rules posted, with just promises of "soon".

It's also clear that they don't have the confidence in their game for it to stand alone on its own merits without the AC name to draw people in, else why not pause for a month or so to get their ducks in a row and relaunch when everything is ready to show off?

Worst case - they knew the licence was about to disappear, and launched before they were ready to generate interest based in the name rather than the merits of the game. Best case, they have learned nothing from the ST campaign, preferring to bull on in the face of problems, hoping that a couple of good ideas equals a decent game.

VERY glad I dropped my pledge to this. I'm sure it will still fund (I predict about $160k in the end), followed by many requests for refunds from backers suddenly finding it wasn't AC any more. The resultant drain will lead to the base games getting shipped with no expansions, followed by more requests for refunds which in the end will not be honoured as BCG will have run out of cash. Ultimately, it will all go as quiet as Serpent Tongue did.....u till the next brother pops up with HIS bright idea.


Haha I definitely feel like this family is the equivalent of those oriental rug stores that run going out of business sales and then change their name and do it again a few months later.

If their reason for dropping the IP was because they were worried about stretch goals taking too long for approval then they obviously didn't have their stretch goals planned out ahead of time.

The game is currently losing 5-6 thousand dollars a day, already down over 60K and has lost nearly 350 backers. Interestingly the losses actually increased day over day for the past three days in a row, the losses are coming faster, not slowing down.

The campaign has 11 days left, if losses continue apace that's another 55K that will disappear. Of course if losses continue at this pace for a few more days they will probably start snowballing.

My prediction is that the game funds at around $150K but the fact they are still going to (attempt to) produce all the previously unlocked stretch goals is going to decimate their budget and since they don't even have an actual rule set yet I doubt they ship before GenCon next year.
 
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Oblivion Doll
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Day 1 of the announcement, they lost a LOT of money, but it slowed down FAST for the following day - AAAALMOST leveling off... then day 3 happened and it's ALREADY starting to snowball from there.

I do want to re-iterate though - my personal position on the AC license is that the game doesn't fit the brand anyway (my main reason for not backing early was because I'm an AC fan, and didn't want to support a game that doesn't stay true to the franchise). I like a lot of what I've seen about how the game works, and I'd rather see it succeed WITHOUT that name tacked on where it doesn't fit.

I honestly think there's a really good game in the works if this project survives. Now it's just up to how BCG handle things to define whether that happens or not.
 
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Wesley Steeves
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I actually think this one could see increased losses instead of increased gains at the 48 hour mark if they don't change something.

They seem way too comfortable with the constant loss of pledges and way too eager to just wrap up the campaign as fast as possible and do who knows what with whatever money is left over. They don't talk about releasing a quality project, they talk about adhering to their self-imposed deadlines...This doesn't seem like a recipe for a good game.

I'm going to retain my pledge until the 48 hour mark to see how this unfolds, but something really doesn't seem right here.
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Just saw this by the Creator himself, Bad Crow Games, in response to one of the backers. He has been questioning BCG hard but fairly since they dropped the Armored Core LP.

From BadCrowGames: "Did the lack of answer to any of these questions justify your relentless attacks @Darian Haplo? These are pretty basic questions whose answers do not determine whether a campaign is stable or not. We would appreciate if you would please cancel your pledge and move on. We have a lot of work ahead of us, a lot of content to produce this week and a lot more backers to attract, your involvement with this campaign is not supporting any of that."

Now if that doesn't scream STAY AWAY!! I don't know what more a backer needs to leave. Aaron Gabrielson, President and owner of Bad Crow Games shows a high level of deceit. Starting with him laying all the blame on From Software and now the low level of blaming backers themeselves. Pity because the property could have been good.
 
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Denis Maddalena
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They didn't exactly blame FROM... if their investors set a deadline of next year, from how much they have now to the finish, it'd be a hell of a thing to pull off.

I'm actually more inclined to believe FROM was happy to hear the possibility, was given the pitch, and they were like,
FROM: "Great, can we see the rules?"
BCG: "Oh, we haven't made those yet."
FROM: "But you've been showing us how to play..."
BCG: "Yes. You fly and you shoot things and you turn off the light! Cool, right?"
FROM: "So where are the rules?"
BCG: "We also want to make a Co-Op expansion."
FROM: "How's that going to work? Does THAT have rules?"
BCG: "We'll tell you in November when we make them. Right now we have a 3d model!"
FROM: "..."
BCG: "Just give us the license, it'll be fine!"
FROM: "... get out of my office."
BCG: "But the campaign started two weeks ago!"
FROM: "!!!"
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Trent DePonte
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I find it ironic that they dropped the license to avoid delays due to having stretch goal designs approved and because they did they're not going to actually have any stretch goals that need approval.

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Trent DePonte
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Feral Tyger wrote:
Just saw this by the Creator himself, Bad Crow Games, in response to one of the backers. He has been questioning BCG hard but fairly since they dropped the Armored Core LP.

From BadCrowGames: "Did the lack of answer to any of these questions justify your relentless attacks @Darian Haplo? These are pretty basic questions whose answers do not determine whether a campaign is stable or not. We would appreciate if you would please cancel your pledge and move on. We have a lot of work ahead of us, a lot of content to produce this week and a lot more backers to attract, your involvement with this campaign is not supporting any of that."

Now if that doesn't scream STAY AWAY!! I don't know what more a backer needs to leave. Aaron Gabrielson, President and owner of Bad Crow Games shows a high level of deceit. Starting with him laying all the blame on From Software and now the low level of blaming backers themeselves. Pity because the property could have been good.


I just saw this myself, what a ridiculous attitude.

You didn't quote my favorite part though where he says that the negativity is hurting their focus and their ability to do work.

Really? You're supposedly professional game makers and some mean people hurting your feelings is delaying you from getting work done?

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eypyeash wrote:
They didn't exactly blame FROM... if their investors set a deadline of next year, from how much they have now to the finish, it'd be a hell of a thing to pull off.

I'm actually more inclined to believe FROM was happy to hear the possibility, was given the pitch, and they were like,
FROM: "Great, can we see the rules?"
BCG: "Oh, we haven't made those yet."
FROM: "But you've been showing us how to play..."
BCG: "Yes. You fly and you shoot things and you turn off the light! Cool, right?"
FROM: "So where are the rules?"
BCG: "We also want to make a Co-Op expansion."
FROM: "How's that going to work? Does THAT have rules?"
BCG: "We'll tell you in November when we make them. Right now we have a 3d model!"
FROM: "..."
BCG: "Just give us the license, it'll be fine!"
FROM: "... get out of my office."
BCG: "But the campaign started two weeks ago!"
FROM: "!!!"


Well your story makes it more laughable. Still shady is shady doos. Nothing tells me BCG or Aaaron is trustworthy of running a project. If people are sticking with it then so be it. But yeeesh!
 
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
Feral Tyger wrote:
Just saw this by the Creator himself, Bad Crow Games, in response to one of the backers. He has been questioning BCG hard but fairly since they dropped the Armored Core LP.

From BadCrowGames: "Did the lack of answer to any of these questions justify your relentless attacks @Darian Haplo? These are pretty basic questions whose answers do not determine whether a campaign is stable or not. We would appreciate if you would please cancel your pledge and move on. We have a lot of work ahead of us, a lot of content to produce this week and a lot more backers to attract, your involvement with this campaign is not supporting any of that."

Now if that doesn't scream STAY AWAY!! I don't know what more a backer needs to leave. Aaron Gabrielson, President and owner of Bad Crow Games shows a high level of deceit. Starting with him laying all the blame on From Software and now the low level of blaming backers themeselves. Pity because the property could have been good.


I just saw this myself, what a ridiculous attitude.

You didn't quote my favorite part though where he says that the negativity is hurting their focus and their ability to do work.

Really? You're supposedly professional game makers and some mean people hurting your feelings is delaying you from getting work done?



Lol sorry but I didn't want to fill the post with Aaron's wall of text. I figure all can go to the KS to read it for themselves.
 
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Jim Pooley
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The lack of rules is disturbing: the player mats look complicated as they would be for a mech and energy distribution. The video show people moving mechs, moving cubes around etc.

They are moving the mechs round in the perfect Armored Core fashion so it 'looks authentic'.

Problem is such a complex RTS mechanism as that would need solidly worked out rules so they SHOULD have the rules written out so why aren't they giving them out?

There's been a certain amount of passive aggressiveness in many of their posts recently.

The main issue is: they have only pulled the IP due to potential issues with stretch goals - seems they've got the go ahead for the main IP with the mechs etc so why the issue with the stretch goals which only seem to expand on what is in the base game?

Plus if they hadn't nailed down the stretch goals IP permission by the start of the KS campaign but had nailed down other IP why start the KS and then pull the name after a few weeks?

Seems they'd got 90% of the way there but not bothered to nail down the 10% that was the stretch goals which is what many a KS grows with.

I've pulled my pledge and gone with Giga-robo - looks fun and the rules seem sorted out and they've done their homework and preplanning; quote:

Quote:
we've read through Jamey Stegmaier's Kickstarter Lessons blog so many times our brains exploded


And if Giga-robo can pull off Scythe's KS smoothness they will go far.
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Stuart Holttum
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Any decent company who - two weeks before launch - discovers that they had (effectively) lost the licence for their new game....which, let's face it, ALL development on look, art, design, rules, tactics, etc would have been based on....would NOT blunder ahead trying to change things on the fly.

Rather, they would postpone launch, carefully retool and rebuild from the start (to ensure no late legal challenges for overlooked licence items) and relaunch later.....IF they had confidence in their gameplay.

BCG are not doing this. Because they KNOW (based on the steady loss of backers) that to launch within the Armoured Core name, they would have no chance of attracting as many backers as they have got through inertia and (pretty sure, based on the pledge levels) a few hundred who have no idea that the licence that attracted them has gone.

Frankly, it smells dodgy to me.
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Trent DePonte
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It smells more then dodgy to me especially since they are still using the Armored Core name in the URL of the campaign.

But hey, the good news is they only lost 4K yesterday.
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Oblivion Doll
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FellintoOblivion wrote:
they are still using the Armored Core name in the URL of the campaign.


That's a site issue, and one not easily undone. It's for Kickstarter to manage, and actually redirecting the URL to a new, updated version would be problematic for the early backers who aren't watching the project closely.

That said, there's a whole bunch of reasons this project continues to look like it needs to be rebooted instead of pushed in its current state. I'm almost expecting the project to drop below the $75,000 target at this rate.

I'm also a backer for Giga-Robo, which has been running REALLY well (very different from this game, but still giant robots beating each other around a cityscape). It's got a lot more details available, and is just being consistently handled in a great manner. To be fair to BCG, though - as far as I can be - it's a lot easier to keep your cool and stay positive when everything is on track and your backers are happy.
 
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