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Subject: Lawyers are the best at revenge. rss

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Damian
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The Missouri Public Defenders Office has been long underfunded, and recently the Governor vetoed a relief bill. More details are spelled out in the letter. The Director of the Missouri State Public Defender System has come up with an interesting solution, I don't want to spoil it so I'll say no more than the way he crafts the letter so exactly as to create a pause just to drop the bomb on page 2 is amazing.

The letter.
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Yeah, I thought that was pretty awesome when I saw it. Quite the talk around the state right now.
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Daniel Edwards
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This is excellent and the writing bone dry.
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Jon Badolato
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Good for him. Glad to see that provision there for his use.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

I appreciate a public defender's job. It's a thankless job, but one that sets our country apart from pretty much any other country. But the sad truth of it is, the entire system is overburdened because too many people keep committing crimes.

Maybe Missouri's problem isn't the public defender's office. Maybe it's the criminal element itself.
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chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

I appreciate a public defender's job. It's a thankless job, but one that sets our country apart from pretty much any other country. But the sad truth of it is, the entire system is overburdened because too many people keep committing crimes.

Maybe Missouri's problem isn't the public defender's office. Maybe it's the criminal element itself.


Alternatively, perhaps the problem is that the criminals aren't rich enough to pay for their own defences. The public defence office would be less over burdened if people left their money less defended for criminals to take.
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Moshe Callen
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chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!…

BS

This presumes that if people are arrested they or someone else committed a crime.
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fightcitymayor
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whac3 wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!…

BS

This presumes that if people are arrested they or someone else committed a crime.
THANK YOU!

Srsly, blaming "lawbreakers" is the dumbest thing I've read in RSP in a long time.

Not to mention the public defender's office is a 6th Amendment Constitutional right. If a state cannot fund their public defender's office then they are failing their own constituents & not living up to one of the basic functions of a state legal system. America's overworked public defender system is routinely sad & pathetic, but because rich people can hire their own lawyers, then no one ever says anything about it & nothing ever gets done. Another one of the myriad ways in which the have-nots are routinely left out of the American experience.
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Andre
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Laughs, good for him. I suspect the letter made the Governor seethe, but I would enjoy actually seeing him have to do his duty, as a member of the bar. With privilege, comes responsibility.
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J
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chrisnd wrote:
However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

innocent people don't use the public defender?
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Jorge Montero
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It's very easy to miss all the context around this, which makes the letter have a very different tone than it seems.

Jay Nixon? A democrat
State congress and senate? Very red, but not quite so to break every veto. We got one of those 'nice' abortion bills that make it very hard for a woman without a good job or a well paid huband to get an abortion, and he had to let it through.

Therefore we have a democrat trying to survive in a political environment that want him seen as nothing but an obstacle. Bills of republican things attached to smaller sensible things, so he will look bad for vetoing no matter what.

I don't have any special love for Jay Nixon, but this is just pre-election theater.
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hibikir wrote:
It's very easy to miss all the context around this, which makes the letter have a very different tone than it seems.

Jay Nixon? A democrat
State congress and senate? Very red, but not quite so to break every veto. We got one of those 'nice' abortion bills that make it very hard for a woman without a good job or a well paid huband to get an abortion, and he had to let it through.

Therefore we have a democrat trying to survive in a political environment that want him seen as nothing but an obstacle. Bills of republican things attached to smaller sensible things, so he will look bad for vetoing no matter what.

I don't have any special love for Jay Nixon, but this is just pre-election theater.


I'm thinking that the Dems will win Governor again -- I don't think Greitner can pull it off. Hope not, anyway; I like keeping the MO Congress and Governorship split.
 
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jmilum wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

innocent people don't use the public defender?


More like "people later found to be innocent by court don't use the public defender...as a rule"
 
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David desJardins
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Here's the veto letter for SB 37.

http://static.votesmart.org/static/vetotext/26932.pdf
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Chad Ellis
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whac3 wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!…

BS

This presumes that if people are arrested they or someone else committed a crime.


It really doesn't. It presumes that some of them do and that the police are making arrests on something vaguely like good faith rather than stitching people up to make a quota.

Suppose for a moment that only half of people arrested and charged who then need a public defender have actually committed a crime. Now suppose that everyone stops breaking the law but the police still arrest the same number of innocent people. The caseload for public defenders would be down 50%.

I think the "if people stopped breaking the law" is something of a red herring, but only because it's trivial -- not because it's false. The only way you have the caseload for public defenders remain constant if people stop committing crimes (assuming of course that at least some of the arrests leading to public defense needs involve actual crimes) is if the police are going to arrest X people regardless of whether any actual crimes have been committed.
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Moshe Callen
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Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.
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Chad Ellis
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whac3 wrote:
Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.


Even still, unless you think that for every person actually committing crimes and getting arrested who stops committing crimes the police will find and frame an innocent then saying that people obeying the law will reduce the load on public defenders is correct. The claim that it necessarily implies that all people who get arrested have committed a crime is logically invalid.
 
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Moshe Callen
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.


Even still, unless you think that for every person actually committing crimes and getting arrested who stops committing crimes the police will find and frame an innocent then saying that people obeying the law will reduce the load on public defenders is correct. The claim that it necessarily implies that all people who get arrested have committed a crime is logically invalid.

If you take to its absurd logical extreme then yes. I wasn't saying, "You're wrong. There won't be fewer arrests at all if fewer crimes are committed." I assume you realize because such a statement would be ridiculous. Rather I was condemning the idea implied by the person I was responding to that in loose terms crimes being committed were the cause of the need of a public defender. That attitude condemns the poor who might be accused of a crime while not condemning those able to afford their own lawyer, at least not in the same way.

So if you want to argue a pedantic point I wasn't making and I doubt anyone thinks I was making, feel free.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.


Even still, unless you think that for every person actually committing crimes and getting arrested who stops committing crimes the police will find and frame an innocent then saying that people obeying the law will reduce the load on public defenders is correct. The claim that it necessarily implies that all people who get arrested have committed a crime is logically invalid.


You're often a good voice of reason Chad, but this time you're the one arguing the angles.
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Wendell
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whac3 wrote:
At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.


And THAT is truly criminal. Of all things, arresting and locking up people should NOT be a profit center for anybody. Edit: Not to mention seizing assets without even an indictment, let alone a conviction, of a person.
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chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

I appreciate a public defender's job. It's a thankless job, but one that sets our country apart from pretty much any other country. But the sad truth of it is, the entire system is overburdened because too many people keep committing crimes.

Maybe Missouri's problem isn't the public defender's office. Maybe it's the criminal element itself.


I agree: we need to so attack the criminal element itself as to greatly reduce its ability to commit crimes and to disrupt society. It requires a multi-pronged approach. One necessary prong in the attack strategy is to curtail its ability to recruit, the primary zone of recruitment being jail itself. In other words, we need to DENY CRIMINALS OF CANNON FODDER -- that is, KEEP INNOCENT PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL.

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Chad Ellis
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whac3 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.


Even still, unless you think that for every person actually committing crimes and getting arrested who stops committing crimes the police will find and frame an innocent then saying that people obeying the law will reduce the load on public defenders is correct. The claim that it necessarily implies that all people who get arrested have committed a crime is logically invalid.

If you take to its absurd logical extreme then yes. I wasn't saying, "You're wrong. There won't be fewer arrests at all if fewer crimes are committed." I assume you realize because such a statement would be ridiculous. Rather I was condemning the idea implied by the person I was responding to that in loose terms crimes being committed were the cause of the need of a public defender. That attitude condemns the poor who might be accused of a crime while not condemning those able to afford their own lawyer, at least not in the same way.

So if you want to argue a pedantic point I wasn't making and I doubt anyone thinks I was making, feel free.


Oh please. I was arguing against your (in my opinion) totally unfair response to the original comment.

He made a pretty straightforward and obviously true comment that if people stopped breaking the law then the burden on public defenders would go down. He didn't say eliminated and he didn't say that all or even most of the people needing public defenders were to blame for their situation.

I think it wasn't a very useful statement, since it's trivially true, but he didn't say anything like, "All people getting arrested are criminals." You, the mayor, and J all responded as though he had, so I pointed out the error. I only went into the pedantic math when you didn't simply own that you'd responded unfairly and instead invoked the for profit aspect of the criminal justice system to show that his statement doesn't imply what you inferred even if we are extremely cynical about arrests.
 
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Chad Ellis
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Shadrach wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Except if the US you have a for profit criminal justice system. Therefore the assumption of good faith is undermined. Too many police departments make money from the fines and processing fees of people-- innocent or guilty-- in the justice system. At all levels, the state and its agencies has a vested financial interest in charging people with crimes.

EDIT:
http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-first-edition/part-...

https://smartasset.com/insights/the-economics-of-the-america...

Notice here that corporations are profiting at the prison level but those corporations then are huge donors to politicians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/us-criminal...

etc.

The public loses but lots of people benefit.


Even still, unless you think that for every person actually committing crimes and getting arrested who stops committing crimes the police will find and frame an innocent then saying that people obeying the law will reduce the load on public defenders is correct. The claim that it necessarily implies that all people who get arrested have committed a crime is logically invalid.


You're often a good voice of reason Chad, but this time you're the one arguing the angles.


See my reply to Moshe. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but here's how I see the exchange.

Chris pointed out that if people stopped committing crimes that would reduce the pressure on public defenders. This is a trivially true statement. At worst it focuses on just one part of the picture.

Moshe called this trivially true statement "BS" and went on with a reply that clearly inferred that Chris was implying a much stronger statement. Fightcitymajor echoed this and J made his own reply question that inferred that Chris was saying that only criminals use the public defender's office. I only went "to the angles" with Moshe to show that his response was unjustified even granted the problems in our criminal justice system.

If a reply to Chris had been, "True, but we shouldn't put all the focus on actual criminal behavior given that we have substantial problems in our criminal justice system that bring way too many innocent people into the system," I would have thumbed or tipped it. But I don't think Chris deserved anything like the response he got.
 
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chrisnd wrote:
It's a great letter, and a great use of the provisions allowed to him via Section 600.042.5. A nice way to shove it back in the governor's face.

However, everyone does realize that the Public Defender's Office would be a bit less burdened if PEOPLE STOPPED BREAKING THE LAW!

I appreciate a public defender's job. It's a thankless job, but one that sets our country apart from pretty much any other country. But the sad truth of it is, the entire system is overburdened because too many people keep committing crimes.

Maybe Missouri's problem isn't the public defender's office. Maybe it's the criminal element itself.


Maybe it's that too many things are against the law, or police are arresting too many people who didn't break the law. My guess is that these are far bigger issues.
 
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