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Wallenstein (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Wallenstein or Shogun? rss

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W. Cracker
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So I purchased the big box Wallenstein a couple of years ago. I really enjoy it, but I notice it slipping in the rankings while Shogun seems to be holding its own in the top 100. I realize they play very similarly, but based on rankings, should I consider getting Shogun and selling/trading Wallenstein?
 
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Chris Broggi
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They are the same game except for the map and Wallenstein comes with the expansions. I prefer Wallenstein because it is harder to turtle into a safe position.
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Tom Stearns
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broggi wrote:
They are the same game except for the map and Wallenstein comes with the expansions. I prefer Wallenstein because it is harder to turtle into a safe position.


I prefer Wallenstein also and for precisely the same reasons.
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MrMzchf wrote:
So I purchased the big box Wallenstein a couple of years ago. I really enjoy it, but I notice it slipping in the rankings while Shogun seems to be holding its own in the top 100. I realize they play very similarly, but based on rankings, should I consider getting Shogun and selling/trading Wallenstein?


I wouldn't pay too much attention to BGG rankings, other than as a matter of curiosity.
Raw average Shogun rating is 7.59, with 9797 ratings.
Raw average Wally 1st ed rating is 7.54, with 3230 ratings.
That's really not that different.
Raw average Wally 2nd ed rating is actually 7.72, the highest; but, it's got the fewest ratings, with 888.

The reason the rankings sort out differently, is that ranking is determined not by the raw average, but a special "Geek" average, which uses a Bayesian algorithm that adds in some dummy votes of average rating, to minimize the influence of shill ratings (1s and 10s). The greater the number of voters, the less the dummy ratings have an influence; so, Shogun, with more voters, has gotten over that "hump" of the dummy votes but the other two haven't. That's entirely due to number of voters and not the actual ratings that BGG users are giving the game.

So, yeah, don't pay too much attention to rankings.

Go with whichever theme you like better. If you like them equally, the consensus seems to be, as the two posters above opined, that the Wally map works better.
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Also, as for why Wally might be slipping in the rankings but not Shogun -
that's probably similarly due to the higher "Geek" (Bayesian) average that Shogun has, in combination with the fact that newer games are constantly coming out, games that have wider distribution and presence then both of the Wally editions. Those games that are good, and have more votes, will have a higher Geek average even if not a higher raw average, which will push the Wallys down.

Wally 1st ed. is German only and is not going to increase much in number of voters.
I'm not sure why Wally 2nd ed. has only 1/3 the number of voters of Shogun (3K vs 10K) - maybe that the board game universe of good games was much smaller when Shogun came out in 2006 than when Wally 2nd ed came out 2012, and also the Japanese theme being more appealing to most gamers (especially American gamers, which make up a huge chunk of the voters) than the 30-years-war (probably why the 1st english version was Shogun in the first place, rather than Wally).

Essentially, I don't think Wally is "slipping" because it's become dated or worse quality, relative to Shogun. It's more that Shogun is "holding its own" not based on its essence as a game, but holding its own in the BGG ranking structure due to a high number of voters relative to Wally.
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FYI if you want to compare the different ratings of a game, search for the game and look in the results column at "Geek rating" (Bayesian with dummy votes added in, ranking is based on this) and "Avg rating" (raw average rating from all BGG users).
 
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W. Cracker
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Some very persuasive points just to hold onto Wally, plus I'm not fond of games that allow turtling, which is a criticism when compared to Shogun.
 
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Glenn Darrin
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You'll be able to pick up a copy of the Big Box version of Shogun soon enough, which includes the same basic types of expansions that comes in Wallenstein. CSI has it up for preorder right now.

As stated, and will be especially true now with the release of the Shogun Big Box, there's not much difference with the exception of theme and the map.
 
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Sight Reader
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broggi wrote:
I prefer Wallenstein because it is harder to turtle into a safe position.

Shameless plug here, but there's an easy solution to the turtling problem that cuts down - if not completely eliminates - setup luck.
 
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Jacob Lee
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I've owned both and strongly disliked Shogun's map.
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Will Reaves
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I will say that the art for Shogun is much prettier. I ultimately sided with Wallenstein for the map, but you might find aesthetic considerations more important.
 
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EmperorJacob wrote:
I've owned both and strongly disliked Shogun's map.

Interesting. Didn't you find that whoever got stuck in the middle of the Wallenstein map was screwed? Wouldn't the Shogun map ameliorate that? It kinda has a corner for everyone, lol.

We don't know for sure because we never play the normal setup anymore. For us, the imminent connectivity of each territory dominates the game: turtling opportunities aren't really available until late in the second year (at the earliest).
 
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John McD
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Last game I played I had my principle lump in the middle, and won. The land you hold is really only where your armies are at the start rather than something you absolutely must hold.

I think people tend to be wary of weakening the middle player too much too - easy to accidentally king make by serving them up on a platter to your rival. A bit like Austria in Maria.
 
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Quantum Jack
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BlackSpy wrote:
Last game I played I had my principle lump in the middle, and won. The land you hold is really only where your armies are at the start rather than something you absolutely must hold.

I think people tend to be wary of weakening the middle player too much too - easy to accidentally king make by serving them up on a platter to your rival. A bit like Austria in Maria.


Unless they are conniving/cunning partners! then they may peck you apart symmetrically so that they ALL gain and only you lose....

but i get your point. turtling in a corner is not the only way to win, and the player in the middle should not be underestimated!
 
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Quantum_Jack wrote:
BlackSpy wrote:
Last game I played I had my principle lump in the middle, and won. The land you hold is really only where your armies are at the start rather than something you absolutely must hold.

I think people tend to be wary of weakening the middle player too much too - easy to accidentally king make by serving them up on a platter to your rival. A bit like Austria in Maria.


Unless they are conniving/cunning partners! then they may peck you apart symmetrically so that they ALL gain and only you lose....

but i get your point. turtling in a corner is not the only way to win, and the player in the middle should not be underestimated!


Full disclosure, it was by a single point and a very lucky battle. And I really felt my heart sink when I was stuck in the middle...
 
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Sight Reader
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BlackSpy wrote:

Full disclosure, it was by a single point and a very lucky battle. And I really felt my heart sink when I was stuck in the middle...

So would you agree that the middle is a disadvantage?
 
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EmperorJacob wrote:
I've owned both and strongly disliked Shogun's map.


Same here. I really wanted to like the Shogun map but each time we played it fell flat.

I could easily see how both games could be improved by using one of the opponent draft variants though. Especially Shogun.
 
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sightreader wrote:
BlackSpy wrote:

Full disclosure, it was by a single point and a very lucky battle. And I really felt my heart sink when I was stuck in the middle...

So would you agree that the middle is a disadvantage?


I don't know if it's a disadvantage but it certainly feels harder. It's much easier to see ways you'll fail. But you know, you can also pick your targets and strike against anyone else.
 
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BlackSpy wrote:
I don't know if it's a disadvantage but it certainly feels harder. It's much easier to see ways you'll fail. But you know, you can also pick your targets and strike against anyone else.

I typically find that the center makes it harder to find secure territories to put buildings in because all of your territories are closer to one of the enemies around you. No?
 
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I used to own both, and now I only own Wallenstein. As others have observed - the Shogun map is much easier to turtle on. Other players are much more accessible on the Wallenstein map (often by more than one player).

I also like the Wallenstein theme more since I'm a big fan of European history (though Samurai are also cool), but that's just subjective.

 
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sightreader wrote:
BlackSpy wrote:
I don't know if it's a disadvantage but it certainly feels harder. It's much easier to see ways you'll fail. But you know, you can also pick your targets and strike against anyone else.

I typically find that the center makes it harder to find secure territories to put buildings in because all of your territories are closer to one of the enemies around you. No?


It does make it harder to secure territory, but you only need to secure territory with buildings really. It makes it hard for others to secure land too. I often play with people who rarely build, they cheerfully maraud about with big armies.
 
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BlackSpy wrote:
I often play with people who rarely build, they cheerfully maraud about with big armies.

Ah! I think that may be the key to the difference. In our games, people maraud to steal buildings. Since Autumn tends to have an orgy of building, Summer finds people positioning themselves close to building sites so they can steal them.

The problem we have with the Wallenstein map is that any of the four corners are ideal for big buffers to protect building sites. Of course, we use the variant to prevent this, but even with the variant you can clearly see corner turtling evolve by the end of the game.
 
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W. Cracker
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sightreader wrote:
BlackSpy wrote:
I often play with people who rarely build, they cheerfully maraud about with big armies.

Ah! I think that may be the key to the difference. In our games, people maraud to steal buildings. Since Autumn tends to have an orgy of building, Summer finds people positioning themselves close to building sites so they can steal them.

The problem we have with the Wallenstein map is that any of the four corners are ideal for big buffers to protect building sites. Of course, we use the variant to prevent this, but even with the variant you can clearly see corner turtling evolve by the end of the game.


I've observed this as well. So if I'm getting the gist of comments so far; both are prone to turtling, but Wallenstein less so. Yes?
 
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MrMzchf wrote:
I've observed this as well. So if I'm getting the gist of comments so far; both are prone to turtling, but Wallenstein less so. Yes?

So far I've found the opposite. It seems that the loop-around paths in Shogun make turtling harder, although I can't remember if we play the Sun or Moon side.

Certainly, by the end of Wallenstein we tend to find that strong positions emerge in the corners while the end of Shogun tends to result in much less stable territory - at least in the 4 or 5 games we've thus far played.

Keep in mind, though, that we use a variant that generates maliciously scattered setups. People who fought to create turtle positions were forced to sacrifice tremendously and, as a result, all our games have gone down to the wire.
 
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W. Cracker
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sightreader wrote:
MrMzchf wrote:
I've observed this as well. So if I'm getting the gist of comments so far; both are prone to turtling, but Wallenstein less so. Yes?

So far I've found the opposite. It seems that the loop-around paths in Shogun make turtling harder, although I can't remember if we play the Sun or Moon side.

Certainly, by the end of Wallenstein we tend to find that strong positions emerge in the corners while the end of Shogun tends to result in much less stable territory - at least in the 4 or 5 games we've thus far played.

Keep in mind, though, that we use a variant that generates maliciously scattered setups. People who fought to create turtle positions were forced to sacrifice tremendously and, as a result, all our games have gone down to the wire.


So tell me about this variant please. Is it available as a file download here or is it a home brew variant?
 
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