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Warhammer Quest: The Adventure Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Troll slayer rest question rss

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I had a question about the troll slayer rest action.

From what I've seen, a few of my questions were answered (empowered rest applies bonus to both attack and the rest, and success tokens are applied separately).

My question is this, when you do an attack after a rest action do you have to roll black dice for the attack as well? So the order is - exhaust an enemy. Rest with black dice, then attack with black dice?

I just played a game where I took 10 damage in one round because of rolling double scratches on both the rest and attack, wasn't sure if I did something wrong or not.
 
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Phillip Houk
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I believe no dice are rolled because in the rules it states you roll the black dice for the main effect of the card.
 
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Thanks that's good to know!

Kind of sucks that a misplay on that rule cost us the game. Troll slayer died pretty early and it went down hill from there. Taking about 10 damage in one REST turn kind of suck - I got two scratches on the rest and then two scratches on the attack portion which I shouldn't have taken.
 
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Martin
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Rules Reference Guide page 4:

An action is the primary effect of each action card, and the action’s name appears in bolded small caps.

I'd say in this special case the Rest Action Card has a rest action AND an attack action which could be triggered.

This was even confirmed by FFG in one of my questions from the past, if you use the attack part on the rest action card it is still considered to be an attack action and therefore gear cards could be used for example.

So if the second action of the card is triggered you roll a second time white dice and therefore also a second time black dice.

Rules Reference Guide page 4:

Roll Dice: The hero simultaneously rolls one hero die for each
die icon presented on his chosen action card and one enemy
die for each readied enemy in his engagement zone.
 
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Martin
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In Addition to that you should also read my thread in the expansion forum to check whether you trigger the attack part on the rest action properly:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603086/rest-action
 
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Martin Mlodzkoski
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themadcow wrote:
I had a question about the troll slayer rest action.

My question is this, when you do an attack after a rest action do you have to roll black dice for the attack as well? So the order is - exhaust an enemy. Rest with black dice, then attack with black dice?


We played as yes -- roll black dice on the attack also. Remember, you get to exhaust an enemy to start the sequence. So double, double bacon is possible although pretty unlucky. Double Triple BACON is impossible!
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Martin
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I answered the best way possible in my opinion, if others interpret it another way it's up to them.
Everyone is free to play the way he/she likesor to consult FFG.

The devs don't publish answers in any forums and the latest FAQ was very short after months of waiting...

The Sadlers answered some questions during the first weeks and then FFG has forbidden it. The Unofficial FAQ which was posted here was also created by solving some questions via communication with FFG.

I can stop posting what FFG answered me in the past regarding certain questions, no problem.

Rules Reference Guide page 4:

An action is the primary effect of each action card, and the action’s name appears in bolded small caps.

They created the rulebook as the Trollslayer didn't exist.
They could have written "PRIMARY EFFECTS" but then each person would have been confused: What are they talking about, there is just one action on each action card, why effects?
Now we have the Trollslayer with 2 actions on 1 action card.

That's the way I see it.
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Martin
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Just for clarification...

If I say that I've got some answers from the game designer/FFG... I don't do it to feel special... Some questions just can't be answered using a rulebook therefore FAQs exist(some of them are better then others) and sometimes rules can be interpreted in different ways.

Therefore I created my compendium in this forums, to contribute the best way possible to this community.
Of course people may ignore it if they aren't interested.

The idea was to gather answers from the devs as we do it in the Eldritch Horror Forums but Eldritch Horror has muuuuuch more card with different interactions and so on.

I would be happy if others also would share their answers from FFG because usually they answer within 1-2 days but in the past I saw unsolved questions for a longer time especially in the first months.

I am not satisfied if a question can't be properly answered or different opinions exist because it would feel like house ruling for me and therefore I ask sometimes FFG because they should know the answer.
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Martin
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I do/did not ask FFG because it is obvious for me that each time if you roll white dice you also have to roll black dice if engaged with enemies.

You know my interpretation of the rules but I could be wrong.

If you are not happy just ask them and share the answer with us^^
 
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Martin Mlodzkoski
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Franklin1742 wrote:
They need to change the reference to 'primary'. The question is not whether there are two actions listed but which is the primary one? By definition only one of multiple action effects listed on an action card can be the primary effect, and it is the primary effect that the Action rule references on page 4.


Page 4 RR "When a hero activates, he performs one action."
At first it seems limiting. But you are performing one action. You might be performing two.

And then the bullet..."An action is the primary effect of each action card, and the action's name appears in bolded small caps."
The attack on the TS rest card is bolded caps. Yes, yes, a card with two primary effects?! Or is the rest primary because it shares the name in the top left? It doesn't matter. Attack is bolded caps so it is an action.

Rr pg5 "Enemy attacks can occur each time a hero performs an action."
 
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Ivan Cox
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Franklin1742 wrote:
An action (singular) is performed by using an Action card. Each action card lists a set of effects that are processed in order. One of those effects, the primary effect (in the singular) according to the RAW, is the one that entails the rolling of black dice.


But the focus on singular is yours, not the rulebooks'. The space for argument opens partly because the word 'action' is used to refer to both the whole set of instructions on an action card, and also to refer just to 'primary' bolded actions.

The LTP says:

 'The main effect of each action card is its action, which appears in bolded small caps. To resolve an action, the active hero gathers and rolls dice.

GATHERING DICE
 The active hero gathers one white die for each die icon that appears after an action’s name.

 Then, the active hero gathers one black die for each readied enemy with which he is engaged.'

This is written from the perspective of a standard action card with only one bold action. It doesn't say 'only roll black dice with the first bolded action' or 'only roll black dice with the action which matches the action card type', and it certainly doesn't say 'only the bolded action which matches the action card type is the primary action'.

The rules ref says

'An action is the primary effect of each action card, and the action’s
name appears in bolded small caps.'

Saying 'an' rather than 'the', this is even further away from stating or suggesting that only the bolded action which matches the action card type is a primary action and therefore black dice are only rolled with it.

More generally, we have rules in the base game. They state that a bolded action requires dice gathering, which includes white and black dice. Yes, the base game only includes action cards with one bold action, so the action rules are written from that perspective. But even so, the golden rule tells us that cards take precedence over rules in the LTP or rules ref. So with a new action card with two bolded actions, even if the rulebooks said only the matching action is primary - and they don't say that - even then, the card includes two primary actions. Only the most perverse rules-lawyering (arbitrarily deciding that use of 'an' or 'the' trumps the rules for bolded actions) can conclude that we should invent a new way of dealing with the second bolded action. In fact, the same logic that says we shouldn't roll black dice here also tells us we shouldn't roll white dice either, as 'gathering dice' both black and white is associated with the or a primary action. This is clearly not correct.
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Ivan Cox
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Where that second quote appears, and where it almost appears (one word out) in both cases it's in a section about action cards. LTP says in page 4:

'HERO ACTIVATION
At the start of each game round, beginning with the party leader and proceeding clockwise, each hero takes a turn activating. When a hero activates, he performs an action.
Performing Actions
Each hero has four action cards, one for each of the following action types:
Explore Rest Aid Attack
To perform an action, a hero chooses and exhausts one of his readied action cards.'

This is in a section about action cards, so despite the language confusion between an action and an action card, in this context there is no other available reading other than that the part I bolded refers to resolving all the effects on an action card.

The rules ref says:
'When a hero activates, he performs one action. Each hero’s available actions are explore, rest, aid, and attack.'

If it's this bit you're referring to, I have more sympathy with your argument; however this entry in the rules reference finishes with:

'After a hero performs an action that has a prepare icon, he readies all four of his action cards.'

So, despite the problems with action/action card, given that no bolded action relates in any way to a refresh icon, again your quote is referring to resolution of an action card, performing each listed step - not just the bolded action.

I don't like the lack of clarity between action and action card, but I've demonstrated now that it's simply not stated that only one bolded action can occur per action card.
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Martin Mlodzkoski
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Hellicon wrote:
In fact, the same logic that says we shouldn't roll black dice here also tells us we shouldn't roll white dice either...


Well said Hellicon. This was precisely my conclusion. Either I have to roll black dice with my rest's special attack or the rules don't ever allow me to make the attack!
 
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Martin Mlodzkoski
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Franklin1742 wrote:
Grandmartoni wrote:
Hellicon wrote:
In fact, the same logic that says we shouldn't roll black dice here also tells us we shouldn't roll white dice either...


Well said Hellicon. This was precisely my conclusion. Either I have to roll black dice with my rest's special attack or the rules don't ever allow me to make the attack!

There are white dice icons next to the word 'attack'. White dice are always rolled on every Hero action, black dice frequently are not, since they are contingent. In this case the secondary attack action is also contingent.

So you are saying that because TS rest attack action is contigent on being engaged with highest rank enemy that all the rules regarding how many black dice to roll (with white dice, during an action) are simply ignored?! This seems to me a pretty thin case. The use of the TS actions are contigent upon playing the TS. The use of the TS advanced rest action is contigent upon upgrading that action. AND...The use of all actions are contigent on not being exhausted...why not ignore black dice because of all these contingencies?! No black dice ever now woohoo ;)

I love your passion about a better FAQ and indeed posted a whole thread about it when they released the one page. Also agree it would be nice for them to clarify rules on TS in a card with the $6 pack. But in the end it is a cooperative game and if you decide to play the TS different than what is the obvious intent, then go for it!
 
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K Scally
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Well, I've been playing that Rest/Attack with both white dice and enemy dice so far. It can be a tragedy when you get 4 damage for the Rest and the Attack, but that's the way I read it. I can see room for a small bit of doubt, but that's the way I'll continue to play it.
The point about the other effects on the Attack card is one that hadn't occurred to me for some reason. What about Gear cards or Items? Presumably I can use these for the Rest/Attack too?
 
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Martin
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kasca wrote:
Well, I've been playing that Rest/Attack with both white dice and enemy dice so far. It can be a tragedy when you get 4 damage for the Rest and the Attack, but that's the way I read it. I can see room for a small bit of doubt, but that's the way I'll continue to play it.
The point about the other effects on the Attack card is one that hadn't occurred to me for some reason. What about Gear cards or Items? Presumably I can use these for the Rest/Attack too?

You may use gear cards that require an attack action even if you use the attack action printed on the rest action card.
If the attack part on the rest action card is triggered, it will count as attack action(bolded small caps).
Keep in mind that you won't heal if you defeat an enemy if you use the attack action on the rest action card.
 
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Martin
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Franklin1742 wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:

Keep in mind that you won't heal if you defeat an enemy if you use the attack action on the rest action card.

Why not? The TS normal Attack action allows healing, and it is not proscribed on the Rest action card.

It is not proscribed on the rest action card but the effect is neither mentioned on THAT card.

Both actions are independent therefore one attack acion may let you roll 3 dice if it's upgraded and the other one 2 dice if not upgraded.

That's the way I played it, but I would be interested to hear different opinions^^
 
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Martin Mlodzkoski
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Roger the Alien wrote:
Franklin1742 wrote:
Roger the Alien wrote:

Keep in mind that you won't heal if you defeat an enemy if you use the attack action on the rest action card.

Why not? The TS normal Attack action allows healing, and it is not proscribed on the Rest action card.

It is not proscribed on the rest action card but the effect is neither mentioned on THAT card.

Both actions are independent therefore one attack acion may let you roll 3 dice if it's upgraded and the other one 2 dice if not upgraded.

That's the way I played it, but I would be interested to hear different opinions^^


Concur that:
You don't heal on TS Rest attack. It is not in any way related to TS ATTACK card.
You can use any gear equipped on TS rest attack.
You use the number of dice on your TS rest card (thus if you upgraded your attack action and not your rest action you only throw 2 dice on TS rest attack when it triggers. Further if you upgraded your rest caRd and not your attack card, you only roll 2 dice when using the attack on the attack action. Bottom line -- the card you use specifies the dice you roll).
And finally -- yes you roll black dice on rest attack.
 
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