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Subject: FFG vs Games Workshop rss

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I must admit that when I saw the announcement of this game, I was astonished: A move of FFG into miniature gaming proper (painting and all!) and therefore a direct confrontation with Games Workshop and Warhammer (of which they are/were? a licence holder for board and cardgames).

I think the significance of this move is huge. FFG, with the backing of Asmodee, has access to a much broader audience than GW has ever had and is taking on GW's core products heads-on while including some of FFG's trademark mechanisms (template movement, order wheels) in a bona-fide minis game (they are even emphasising the painting aspect in their product announcement!). The game mechanism they have created seem to get around a lot of the mechanical fiddliness that many people find off-putting in miniature games, thanks to the templates and movement trays as integrated part of the game experience. This may bring "traditional" miniatures-gaming to a much broader audience and could severely hit GW's bottom line.

For the first time, GW is facing more than niche competitors (which Privateer Press still is, despite all). And this at a time when, with their ridiculous Age of Sigmar, they seem very vulnerable on the fantasy front. To me as a miniatures gamer, this increase in competition (and possible gaming partners) is great news and I cannot wait to see more of this game. And if we are lucky, maybe it will even force GW to rethink their business practices and prices a bit faster (though they seem to have taken some first careful steps regarding the former in the last couple of months).

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Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!
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zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


Let's not start with the negatives.
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An FFG paint set for each army *would* actually be a good idea -- assuming they're used in the tutorials. When I was a new painter, I would be thrown off a tutorial when they called for a paint I didn't have (and didn't make a suggestion what to use instead). In my Zombicide painting tutorials, then, I use only the Army Painter Zombicide paints and Quickshade Inks.

Anyway, with Games Workshop "retiring" the Olde World (ie. Warhammer Fantasy), plenty of other companies are going after the generic fantasy wargaming niche, including Mantic's Kings of War, and CMON's Wrath of Kings (may have the two mixed up. (:

FFG's teaming up with Asmodee is now a good thing, because miniature wargames rely upon FLGS's *much* more than boardgames (and even prepainted miniatures) for the wargamers to find opponents. OTOH, I don't think boardgamers will be entirely left out, since the rules system support skirmishes (ie. few miniatures on each side), so you can still play a game with just the core box.

Not much else to say. Curious how well this will work out!
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zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


According to Team Covenant's twitter feed, FFG were asked this during the in-flight report, and they are apparently not interested in getting in a chemicals business, so that's probably a no on the paints.
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My first thought on seeing this was "Oh, FFG are remaking Warhammer Fantasy Battle."

But, to be honest, I don't think it's going to be much of a concern for GW.

This product may encourage a few more boardgamers to try a miniatures war game, but I'm not so sure it is going to steal much of GW's business, unless they are going to:

Significantly up the quality of their miniatures
Start doing multi-piece, multi-pose, customisable models
Support a wide selection of armies/races/mercenaries
Make individual unit boxes for army building
Expand the lore of Terrinoth to make it more interesting

The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how successful it will be, especially as they already have BattleLore, which encapsulates the same theme and races in a way that is probably more accessible for boardgamers who don't necessarily want to take on all the other hobby aspects (but still can if they want to).

Guess we'll have to see how it goes.
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I hope this means we might see tabletop rules for imperial assault! I love the miniatures but never really liked either of the games that came with them. Some decent tabletop rules would get me to buy more star wars minis... I wonder if their liscence would allow this? They already have 3 factions along with tanks, big creatures, heroes, and walkers... plus a universe people already care about.

X-wing is a true tabletop game and they have made medium scale fantasy battle games before (battle lore 2nd and the game of thrones miniature game) so it seems like an obvious next step. They will need at least 3 fully supported factions in the first year if they are going to get enough momentum in this busy genre. I wish them luck though I will probably wait a year to see if it has legs. The biggest hurdle for the game will be the 'rune' universe itself... It feels very generic at this point.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
My first thought on seeing this was "Oh, FFG are remaking Warhammer Fantasy Battle."

But, to be honest, I don't think it's going to be much of a concern for GW.

This product may encourage a few more boardgamers to try a miniatures war game, but I'm not so sure it is going to steal much of GW's business, unless they are going to:

Significantly up the quality of their miniatures
Start doing multi-piece, multi-pose, customisable models
Support a wide selection of armies/races/mercenaries
Make individual unit boxes for army building
Expand the lore of Terrinoth to make it more interesting

The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how successful it will be, especially as they already have BattleLore, which encapsulates the same theme and races in a way that is probably more accessible for boardgamers who don't necessarily want to take on all the other hobby aspects (but still can if they want to).

Guess we'll have to see how it goes.

Regarding individual unit boxes, lore and wide selection of armies, it sounds very much like something FFG would do, given how they market X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Battlelore, Descent etc.

As for the unit quality, I must say I am not a great judge of that, but the one they have on the photos look pretty ace. Maybe not quite GW, but certainly beating Kings of War and some other producers, so definitely competitive.

Lastly, regarding multi-pose... would be very curious how important that is to the market in general, especially at the more play-oriented end of the hobby, which will be targeted by this. I personally care very little for that, but I am of course not representative at all.
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Order wrote:


Lastly, regarding multi-pose... would be very curious how important that is to the market in general, especially at the more play-oriented end of the hobby, which will be targeted by this. I personally care very little for that, but I am of course not representative at all.


That's kinda my point - I don't think this game is going to take from the GW crowd (and we are talking about FFG vs GW here), because that crowd very much cares about the construction and painting. However, the game might be a way of nudging boardgamers (the play-oriented end of the hobby) to give a miniatures game a go.

It is odd they are pushing the painting angle, considering they already make things like BattleLore and Imperial Assault, which lots of people enjoy painting.

If the game can't take a chunk of the miniatures gamers away from other products, it does risk sitting in a subset of the board game section, which might be good enough, but might also mean it doesn't keep its legs for too long.

X-Wing thrives because it is (apparently) an excellent game, but is also backed up with a theme about some movie that some people quite liked, plus it is painted (which is more skewed towards gamers); but Runewars has the hurdles of being unpainted, and sitting in a world that is a bit generic. Then you have to take into account a lot of gamers are already getting a bit of this experience with BattleLore, and then adding in the worry of how well-supported other races will be in the early stages... Basically, I'm not convinced at the moment, and I will definitely be waiting to see how things unfold.

Personally, I hope it does well, just because I don't like seeing things fail, even if they don't really interest me. However, even if the game is a huge hit, I don't think it is going to cause GW much of an issue.
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


According to Team Covenant's twitter feed, FFG were asked this during the in-flight report, and they are apparently not interested in getting in a chemicals business, so that's probably a no on the paints.


Well, there's still the option of getting an agreement with Army Painter to sell their paints in sets with FFG RuneWars packaging. Most of the larger non-geedub miniature companies do that nowadays, including CoolMiniOrNot.
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zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!

That's pretty damn funny. Have some

-shnar
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DonSilvarro wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


According to Team Covenant's twitter feed, FFG were asked this during the in-flight report, and they are apparently not interested in getting in a chemicals business, so that's probably a no on the paints.


Well, there's still the option of getting an agreement with Army Painter to sell their paints in sets with FFG RuneWars packaging. Most of the larger non-geedub miniature companies do that nowadays, including CoolMiniOrNot.


I've seen the word "geedub" pop up in threads related to GW, but I have no idea what it means. Could you explain, please?
 
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
DonSilvarro wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


According to Team Covenant's twitter feed, FFG were asked this during the in-flight report, and they are apparently not interested in getting in a chemicals business, so that's probably a no on the paints.


Well, there's still the option of getting an agreement with Army Painter to sell their paints in sets with FFG RuneWars packaging. Most of the larger non-geedub miniature companies do that nowadays, including CoolMiniOrNot.


I've seen the word "geedub" pop up in threads related to GW, but I have no idea what it means. Could you explain, please?


Geedub... Gee double... G W
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
DonSilvarro wrote:
TheNameWasTaken wrote:
zemus wrote:
Proprietary FFG paints, brushes and scenery are the next logical move!


According to Team Covenant's twitter feed, FFG were asked this during the in-flight report, and they are apparently not interested in getting in a chemicals business, so that's probably a no on the paints.


Well, there's still the option of getting an agreement with Army Painter to sell their paints in sets with FFG RuneWars packaging. Most of the larger non-geedub miniature companies do that nowadays, including CoolMiniOrNot.


I've seen the word "geedub" pop up in threads related to GW, but I have no idea what it means. Could you explain, please?


Geedub... Gee double... G W


Oh. That makes some amount of sense, I guess.
 
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mermuse wrote:
I hope this means we might see tabletop rules for imperial assault! I love the miniatures but never really liked either of the games that came with them. Some decent tabletop rules would get me to buy more star wars minis... I wonder if their liscence would allow this? They already have 3 factions along with tanks, big creatures, heroes, and walkers... plus a universe people already care about.

X-wing is a true tabletop game and they have made medium scale fantasy battle games before (battle lore 2nd and the game of thrones miniature game) so it seems like an obvious next step. They will need at least 3 fully supported factions in the first year if they are going to get enough momentum in this busy genre. I wish them luck though I will probably wait a year to see if it has legs. The biggest hurdle for the game will be the 'rune' universe itself... It feels very generic at this point.


I'd love to see tabletop rules for the TI3 universe, both space and ground combat. Something like Firestorm Armada and Firestorm Planetfall.
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Yeah, I'm not sure if Rune Wars is going to pull people away from GW because the games seem to fit different niches. It's sort of like wondering if a new model Ford truck is going to pull market share away from Tesla. It's hard to imagine a gamer holding both a box of Age of Sigmar and Rune Wars, comparing the two and choosing one of them over the other because target audience for the games don't seem to overlap much.

As others have said, Rune Wars seem aimed at board gamers (especially X-wing/Armada fans) to test the waters of table top war-gaming whereas GW is tapping in to miniature modelers and more seasoned war gamers who can handle a fairly complex rule set and long battles. (Rune Wars has a built in timer that ends the battle after only eight rounds which limits a game to about an hour or less). Direct competitors to GW seem to be Warmahordes and Mantic.

If anything, GW will benefit from converted Rune War gamers as they might desire to check out more complex games and GW has a pretty recognizable brand.

I've recognized ways that GW have tried to create more on-ramps for people to get into their products--they have value-laden starter sets with viable games in them like Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth, Deathwatch Overkill, Lost Patrol, etc. But at the end of the day, I feel like they are losing market share because they still prioritize miniatures over having tight rules and great game play.

Why wasn't Deathwatch Overkill directly tied in with Space Hulk? Why don't they have robust campaign rules for Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower? Like someone else mentioned, they dumbed down the rules thinking this would make it more accessible for new players but the game itself isn't all that fleshed out nor compelling. (I think Betrayal at Calth is decent but Assassinorum is downright boring.) And when their games are over US$100, it's got to be more than just okay as a game to attract new gamers who don't buy the boxes just for the minis.

I was very hopeful when I heard they were reviving Warhammer Quest but after buying the game, painting half the minis and playing four scenarios, even though the new dice mechanic is cool, I would much rather play Shadows of Brimstone if only because I can upgrade everything in town and pick from an upgrade tree when I level up! It's like they spent only one brainstorm meeting to come up with some ideas and then implemented a half-baked game that has so much potential but so much missed opportunity.

In my humble opinion, GW's greatest competitor is GW itself. Sort of like how DC seems incapable of making a decent superhero movie, if GW can't make a good game (versus just pretty miniatures) and improve it's company's bad reputation it will only become a miniatures company.
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mermuse wrote:
I hope this means we might see tabletop rules for imperial assault! I love the miniatures but never really liked either of the games that came with them. Some decent tabletop rules would get me to buy more star wars minis...

It's certainly possible, and both an infantry-focused scale Star Wars wargame and a vehicle-focused scale one would certainly pique my interest, but I wouldn't bet on it.

HeavyGear wrote:
I'd love to see tabletop rules for the TI3 universe, both space and ground combat. Something like Firestorm Armada and Firestorm Planetfall.

I find it really odd that Twilight Imperium only ever got one spinoff pre-SW license, and I don't see them going back to it as long as Disney keeps letting Fantasy Flight print money with their Star Wars stuff.

bumyong wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure if Rune Wars is going to pull people away from GW because the games seem to fit different niches. It's sort of like wondering if a new model Ford truck is going to pull market share away from Tesla. It's hard to imagine a gamer holding both a box of Age of Sigmar and Rune Wars, comparing the two and choosing one of them over the other because target audience for the games don't seem to overlap much.

Very different feel indeed. I guess we'll see.

bumyong wrote:
Direct competitors to GW seem to be Warmahordes and Mantic.

While definitely true, that doesn't mean this game isn't a competitor.

bumyong wrote:
If anything, GW will benefit from converted Rune War gamers as they might desire to check out more complex games and GW has a pretty recognizable brand.

GW now lacking a rank and file game, I don't really see that happening much.

bumyong wrote:
And when their games are over US$100, it's got to be more than just okay as a game to attract new gamers who don't buy the boxes just for the minis.

In my humble opinion, GW's greatest competitor is GW itself.

Certainly.
 
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Don't forget that FFG have dipped their toe in the waters before for unpainted miniatures games with Dust Tactics (gridded board game) and Dust Warfare (true tabletop wargame). It was fantastic for the consumer, they were the glory days of Dust with excellent kits, cheap and easily available.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how successful it will be, especially as they already have BattleLore, which encapsulates the same theme and races in a way that is probably more accessible for boardgamers who don't necessarily want to take on all the other hobby aspects (but still can if they want to).


This.

I'm perplexed by this re-branding of an epic strategy game into a tabletop miniatures game, when they already have a decent unit-based fantasy game. Furthermore, FFG has never been about painting miniatures.

I suspect Asmodee directed this, much like Star Wars Destiny enters the collectibles sphere.
 
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EyeLost wrote:
Don't forget that FFG have dipped their toe in the waters before for unpainted miniatures games with Dust Tactics (gridded board game) and Dust Warfare (true tabletop wargame). It was fantastic for the consumer, they were the glory days of Dust with excellent kits, cheap and easily available.

I do keep forgetting about those - and that they are still around - ever since they moved the Dust games into "Other Games" on their website. And whenever I did look into them - before or after - they were sold out everywhere I looked.

Barks wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how successful it will be, especially as they already have BattleLore, which encapsulates the same theme and races in a way that is probably more accessible for boardgamers who don't necessarily want to take on all the other hobby aspects (but still can if they want to).


This.

I'm perplexed by this re-branding of an epic strategy game into a tabletop miniatures game, when they already have a decent unit-based fantasy game. Furthermore, FFG has never been about painting miniatures.

I suspect Asmodee directed this, much like Star Wars Destiny enters the collectibles sphere.

Given FFG's history with the collectible market, I have no doubt about Mehstiny's origin, but as for this? Name: Probably. Game: Possibly. *shrug*
 
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bumyong wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure if Rune Wars is going to pull people away from GW because the games seem to fit different niches. It's sort of like wondering if a new model Ford truck is going to pull market share away from Tesla. It's hard to imagine a gamer holding both a box of Age of Sigmar and Rune Wars, comparing the two and choosing one of them over the other because target audience for the games don't seem to overlap much.


Age of Sigmar did upset a large segment of Warhammer players. This looks like it's aimed at people who miss proper warhammer; and as one of those players I am completely abandoning GW and going with Rune Wars.
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This product does pose some interesting questions.

It looks like they might be including some flat "terrain," but I guess the aim is still going to be for people to make terrain. Wonder if that might be too much of a leap for people who have been playing things like BattleLore rather than miniatures war games?

Also, it is interesting to note this game has a MRSP of $100 and what looks to be 48 miniatures. Age of Sigmar has the same miniature count, and a MRSP of $125. So, FFG are starting to nudge up that price point, but I can't imagine the miniatures are going to be of the same quality. So, how much content besides the miniatures are they going to be throwing into the box?

This, coming at a time when GW are making products to make their lines more accessible (the Storm of Sigmar starter for $33) means it is now going to be cheaper to give Age of Sigmar a go than it is to give Runewars a go.
 
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Barks wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder how successful it will be, especially as they already have BattleLore, which encapsulates the same theme and races in a way that is probably more accessible for boardgamers who don't necessarily want to take on all the other hobby aspects (but still can if they want to).


This.

I'm perplexed by this re-branding of an epic strategy game into a tabletop miniatures game, when they already have a decent unit-based fantasy game. Furthermore, FFG has never been about painting miniatures.

I suspect Asmodee directed this, much like Star Wars Destiny enters the collectibles sphere.


My guess is that Battlelore didn't do well. The very slow release of expansions seems to support this.

I think they saw the massive success of their tabletop minis games (though they have been painted!) and wondered if they could translate this into the fantasy arena. The choice to make them unpainted was probably made so they could afford to put more minis in the box.

I'm really excited for this title, despite the fact that the Terrinoth universe is not very interesting to me. High hopes for this game - and maybe it'll make the Terrinoth universe come alive, who knows?
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Quote:
My guess is that Battlelore didn't do well. The very slow release of expansions seems to support this.

I think they saw the massive success of their tabletop minis games (though they have been painted!) and wondered if they could translate this into the fantasy arena. The choice to make them unpainted was probably made so they could afford to put more minis in the box.

I'm really excited for this title, despite the fact that the Terrinoth universe is not very interesting to me. High hopes for this game - and maybe it'll make the Terrinoth universe come alive, who knows?


Does the Terrinoth universe interest any one? I'm surprised how much FFG has held onto this universe and has continued to make games in it. It is the most generic fantasy setting ever. The only thing that is different about it is magic is cast using stone (runes, which is boring imo). I've never heard any one say they like the universe. FFG seems to be the only people that like it. Maybe they'll rebrand 40K Conquest to the Runebound universe (if they lose the licensing of course).

If Battlelore 2nd ed did do poorly I wonder if it would have done better had it been placed in a more exciting universe.
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I love Battlelore 2e. It has had quite a few expansions over the past year or so. More than I was expecting. I also like Terrinoth, but it is quite generic.
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