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Subject: RealmSpeak and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening rss

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Bill D.
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By 3.1 Rules:

Quote:
8.2.2 When combat begins in a clearing, each character in that
clearing must roll on the Meeting Table to see if the unhired
native groups in that clearing will battle him. He must roll even
if he is hidden. He must also roll if he has hirelings in that
clearing, even if he is not present himself. Note: No combat
takes place in clearings with only monsters, unhired natives and
underlings. However, if combat starts in a clearing because other
characters or hired leaders are present, characters who have only
underlings in that clearing still must roll for battling natives.

a. The character rolls once for each group that has any
unhired natives in the clearing. He finds his result in the Meeting
Table that matches his trading relationship with the group using
any of the character’s die-roll modifiers that apply to the
Meeting Table. If he is in the clearing, he can “buy drinks”
before rolling to make the group one level friendlier.

b. If he rolls “Block/Battle” for a group, or if he rolls
“Insult” or “Challenge” and does not pay the penalty points, then
that group battles him and his hirelings for the rest of the
evening. If he rolls any other result, the group is not battling him
(and the result has no other effect). His result applies only to that
group. He rolls only once per group per day, at the very start of
combat. Note: Meeting Table “Block/Battle” rolls start battles
only during the Evening. Rolls during Daylight cause blocking,
not battles.


I was playing in RealmSpeak as the dwarf (unfriendly only to Woodfolk and Baskars) and I moved unhidden into a clearing with the Patrol. RealmSpeak rolls the dice as it should with the results of five and six. Six for neutral is Trouble which should be ignored as bolded above but instead RealmSpeak actually rerolls on the next lowest tier as if in a trade. It then rolls one and six which causes a battle. I could be wrong but I believe RealmSpeak processed this incorrectly. I tried searching elsewhere on this but found no other instance. As a process to speed up gameplay when playing the physical copy shouldn't ally, friendly and neutral rolls be skipped in this scenario?
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GodRob
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
Interesting.

I've always played that "Trouble" and "Opportunity" were not actually results but required you to reroll on a different column to find your final result.

But reading what you quoted I have my doubts now. I checked the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition rules and they are all worded the same way. Plus, both Trouble and Opportunity are listed under "Explanation of Results", meaning that they are in fact results.

Thematically, I feel that neutral natives should have a chance of starting fights with Trouble. If most of the natives in the game are no threat to you, then the game would be a lot easier.
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Carel Teijgeler
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
From the 3.1 rule book page 120

Quote:
TROUBLE: Immediately roll again and find
your result in the UNFRIENDLY column.

OPPORTUNITY: Immediately roll again and
find your result in the next friendlier column
(so if you roll “OPPORTUNITY” in the
NEUTRAL column, roll again and find your
new result in the FRIENDLY column).
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Hector Flores
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
robertg611 wrote:

I've always played that "Trouble" and "Opportunity" were not actually results but required you to reroll on a different column to find your final result.


That's how I play it and I believe this to be correct - though the rules could use clarifying.
 
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GodRob
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
anijunk wrote:
From the 3.1 rule book page 120

Quote:
TROUBLE: Immediately roll again and find
your result in the UNFRIENDLY column.

OPPORTUNITY: Immediately roll again and
find your result in the next friendlier column
(so if you roll “OPPORTUNITY” in the
NEUTRAL column, roll again and find your
new result in the FRIENDLY column).


Since neither of those are Block/Battle, Challenge, or Insult I'm assuming that you are agreeing with the OP.
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Carel Teijgeler
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
robertg611 wrote:
anijunk wrote:
From the 3.1 rule book page 120

Quote:
TROUBLE: Immediately roll again and find
your result in the UNFRIENDLY column.

OPPORTUNITY: Immediately roll again and
find your result in the next friendlier column
(so if you roll “OPPORTUNITY” in the
NEUTRAL column, roll again and find your
new result in the FRIENDLY column).


Since neither of those are Block/Battle, Challenge, or Insult I'm assuming that you are agreeing with the OP.

No, I disagree with the OP, as the quoted text from the Meeting Tables tells you to roll the dice again. That is what MagicRealm (OP's term)* does, so according to the quoted text.

The OP quoted a segment of the rules, that implies that no other dice role is required.

Both sections contradicts each other. I take the text with the Meeting tables, as that is what I am consulting at that time.


* Do you not mean RealmSpeak?
 
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Jay Richardson
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Re: Magic Realm and Meeting Table Roll with Natives in Evening
GodRob wrote:
I've always played that "Trouble" and "Opportunity" were not actually results but required you to reroll on a different column to find your final result.

I agree.

"Trouble" and "Opportunity" are not results that can be applied to a native group (8.2.2.b: "His result applies only to that group."). They are directives to re-roll on another column.

Realmspeak implements this correctly, but the rules could be worded a little more clearly here.

Bill D. wrote:
As a process to speed up gameplay when playing the physical copy shouldn't ally, friendly and neutral rolls be skipped in this scenario?

For Ally and Friendly natives, yes, they will never battle you in the Evening, but Neutral natives might – if you roll a "6" twice in a row – so you do have to roll for them (unless you are the White Knight, who subtracts one from his Meeting Rolls).
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Bill D.
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robertg611 wrote:
Interesting.

I've always played that "Trouble" and "Opportunity" were not actually results but required you to reroll on a different column to find your final result.

But reading what you quoted I have my doubts now. I checked the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition rules and they are all worded the same way. Plus, both Trouble and Opportunity are listed under "Explanation of Results", meaning that they are in fact results.

Thematically, I feel that neutral natives should have a chance of starting fights with Trouble. If most of the natives in the game are no threat to you, then the game would be a lot easier.


As you noted I believe all entries in the meeting table are a result as each entry is detailed under "explanation of results" including trouble of which the entire meeting table is encompassed:


robertg611 wrote:

No, I disagree with the OP, as the quoted text from the Meeting Tables tells you to roll the dice again. That is what MagicRealm (OP's term)* does, so according to the quoted text.

The OP quoted a segment of the rules, that implies that no other dice role is required.

Both sections contradicts each other. I take the text with the Meeting tables, as that is what I am consulting at that time.


* Do you not mean RealmSpeak


With the above mentioned we go back to 8.2.2b
Quote:
b. If he rolls “Block/Battle” for a group, or if he rolls
“Insult” or “Challenge” and does not pay the penalty points, then
that group battles him and his hirelings for the rest of the
evening. If he rolls any other result, the group is not battling him
(and the result has no other effect)
. His result applies only to that
group. He rolls only once per group per day, at the very start of
combat. Note: Meeting Table “Block/Battle” rolls start battles
only during the Evening. Rolls during Daylight cause blocking,
not battles.


I interpret this as is: If you do not roll a block/battle, insult or challenge you do not battle.

I updated the title and original post to be properly named RealmSpeak.
 
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Carel Teijgeler
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Apparently you ignore the text of the explanations on Trouble and Opportunity in the Meeting Table.

In your case: the Dwarf meets the Patrol (Neutral).
Roll the dice.
Result Trouble - reroll and check the Unfriendly column
Opportunity - reroll and check the Friendly column.

In the first case (Trouble) the natives can Battle/Block the character, when the result of the reroll indicates it would.
Insult and Challenge can end in Block/Battle, if you will not pay the cost of -5 Notoriety or -5 Fame respectively.

RealmSpeak works as such and it works according the rules.

The problem you may have is that are a lots of rerolls in RealmSpeak. But that is because that game has falling in love with a dice roll result of 6. (Unless when doing a Reading Runes action, than it will frequently roll 5s as a result).

On a side note: RealmSpeak do all the dice rolling, you do not have control over it.
 
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GodRob
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anijunk wrote:
Apparently you ignore the text of the explanations on Trouble and Opportunity in the Meeting Table.


And that's the point.

8.2.2.b is telling you to ignore the text of the explanations.

The result of a 6 in the Neutral column is not "roll again on the unfriendly column." The result is "Trouble". "Trouble" does not equal "block/battle", "challenge", or "insult", so therefore there is no battle.
 
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Aaron Bredon
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robertg611 wrote:
anijunk wrote:
Apparently you ignore the text of the explanations on Trouble and Opportunity in the Meeting Table.


And that's the point.

8.2.2.b is telling you to ignore the text of the explanations.

The result of a 6 in the Neutral column is not "roll again on the unfriendly column." The result is "Trouble". "Trouble" does not equal "block/battle", "challenge", or "insult", so therefore there is no battle.


But "Trouble" is not a result - "Trouble" is: "Immediately roll again and find your result in the Unfriendly column. Your result is whatever you rolled in the Unfriendly column." The important text is 'your result'.

If you roll 6 in the Neutral column, you do not have a result until you have rolled again in the Unfriendly column. Whatever result you get from that roll is your result from rolling 6 in the Neutral column.
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Steve Schacher

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My preferred interpretation is the one which does not require the player to remember yet another exception to the rules as printed for the common play.

My vote is for the Trouble result to count as described on the table, and to reroll as Unfriendly to find the final result.

Steve
 
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Carel Teijgeler
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robertg611 wrote:
anijunk wrote:
Apparently you ignore the text of the explanations on Trouble and Opportunity in the Meeting Table.


And that's the point.

8.2.2.b is telling you to ignore the text of the explanations.

The result of a 6 in the Neutral column is not "roll again on the unfriendly column." The result is "Trouble". "Trouble" does not equal "block/battle", "challenge", or "insult", so therefore there is no battle.

Then explain this:
When you first start in the Neutral column, how then can you end up with a Block/Battle result? You cannot get that from the Neutral column.

8.2.2.b only tells the negative results of the Unfriendly column, which is the result you have got.It does not say (in what words then?) to ignore the explanations with the Meeting table.
 
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GodRob
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srschacher wrote:

My vote is for the Trouble result to count as described on the table, and to reroll as Unfriendly to find the final result.

Steve


As is mine. That's how I've always played it but it wouldn't be the first rule I found out I had played wrong.

It's just that 8.2.2b is very explicit in its wording of what will start a battle and everything else does not start a battle and is completely ignored. That got me to thinking "Maybe all of those Neutral natives aren't supposed to attack me all the time. Maybe they're not supposed to be dickheads in every game I play."

Unfortunately, I finally took the time to reread all of the results on the meeting table. Block/Battle, Price, and Boon all have different explanations if rolled during the evening. Those explanations wouldn't be necessary if we weren't supposed to read them during evening (as is implied by 8.2.2b.) Since Trouble doesn't have any exception for evening, then it would definitely cause a reroll on the Unfriendly column no matter when it's rolled.

So, those Neutral Natives that kept killing me in hundreds of games were only being the dickheads they were designed to be.

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Quantum Jack
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I think the only real problem is the term "result"

You ignore other results. But, if you roll trouble, it tells you that this is not your result, but shows you where to find the result.

Trouble is not an endpoint on the flow chart, but another node. Only an endpoint is a "result"
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