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So, as stated, I have zero credibility whatsoever on the subject, I have no idea what the previous "deal" between FFG and GW was regarding Warhammer. I have no idea what the current state of things are. I know no one at GW or FFG. I'm just posting a few observations from what I've seen/overheard here at GenCon. Feel free to chime in now that disclaimers are out of the way.

It's pretty clear that the FFG/GW deal for FFG to produce Warhammer stuff is kaput. FFG has announced no new Warhammer 40,000: Conquest, Forbidden Stars, or Warhammer Quest: The Adventure Card Game stuff, in fact their employees aren't saying anything about it (literally, I did ask an employee and all he could tell me was, "I can't say anything about it").
Now they have their own Runewars minis game coming out, seemingly in competition with Warhammer 40k, it seems to comfirm this. To me that means 2 things:

-FFG and GW are currently in talks and can't really say much, less likely now that FFG is moving into the wargamming minis line

- The deal is expired, over, not renewed, whatever and either (or both) FFG or GW are not interested in a new deal.

So, again this is just my observations, having been both a 40k player and current FFG fanboy (with a moderate business education). GW had a good thing going initially with Warhammer, made some money. Then through stuff becoming increasingly expensive, bad business decisons, poor customer communication, whathaveyou, 40K fell on rough times. They sold the license (or rented possibly) to FFG to make board games with them making a good amount of cash upfront and possibly some small percentage per sale.

GW makes good money off this deal and a few years go by, they pick their scruples off the ground and decide to try again (although you could argue they never totally left)..... in comes Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower. Initially a good game but (and i've only played it a small handful of times) nothing really original and there are alot of games that do it similar and much cheaper. Plus it's VERY expensive (esp. to expand), a trend with GW.

unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your opinion) I'm thinking GW will just end up selling "Warhammer" in it's entirety to FFG (if they still want it by that time) and everything can get back to the way it was. I'm not sure Silver Tower has legs and people are too burned by 40K when there is sooooo much better out there (certainly I don't forsee anyone new getting into it)

Again, thanks for listening, feel free to post your own thoughts, or maybe direct experiences
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I very seriously doubt that GW would sell the entire Warhammer line to FFG. I would hope that from their several failed attempts into miniature wargaming that FFG is better suited at board games then miniature games.

Further, if GW was to decide to sell one of their two major lines, then that means the are closing doors. While they have been losing ground, I think the company us still viable. They would get greater value by selling the entire company. Of course after spinning of their computer gaming and going all in there.

More likely they will continue licencing their storylines for others to produce board games and RPGs. Maybe they would sell a couple of their specialist lines. I thin I did hear they are thinking of rebooting the specialist line though.
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Yeah, very good points. I'm unsure as what to make about Runewars Miniatures Game. On the one hand I agree FFG has had trouble in the past with this kind of thing, but Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game is extremely successful and they are following a similar template, albeit with unpainted minis and the Terrinoth setting (which certainly isn't as popular as Star Wars). Time will tell, I guess, though FFG does support their lines (cough, cough, some of their lines) well.

Maybe I'm just jadded as a former 40K player (I'm sure I am), but I have trouble seeing GW as a viable tabletop company with current business practices, possibly to just get absorbed by the Asmodee death ball!!!

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Gamesworkshop would rather burn (along with its IP) or entomb itself against interlopers than sell.

I don't think Asmodee needs that headache.

Seriously though I see no real competition between the two, I would hope FFG would continue to put out GW licenced games as they are different beasts to GW new found love of miniature driven board games and upcoming new newer but really same old same old blood bowl.
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eindatadog wrote:
Gamesworkshop would rather burn (along with its IP) or entomb itself against interlopers than sell.


Haha, I tend to agree with you.

It would be nice if GW just re-ups with FFG (or Asmodee as it stands) and they both continue to just make money
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eindatadog wrote:
Gamesworkshop would rather burn (along with its IP) or entomb itself against interlopers than sell.


Really feels that way, doesn't it? At least they used to host the PDFs of their old games and give them a little support through their "specialist games", nowadays it's nothing...

I recently found myself by a Games Workshop and went in thinking they might stock GW related things (rpg books, black library books, board games, card games, etc).
Turns out they don't stock any of that stuff, just miniatures, dice, and paint.

Now I don't know how to run a business/ company or even how licensing works, carrying NOTHING that isn't GW seemed strange. I mean, half the people I play licensed games with play the tabletop game, seems like there would be some interest...
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I'd be interested to hear if anyone had some solid information. I'd love to see some Forbidden Stars expansions. If that's never going to happen a little angel in my heart just died. Probably blown up by an Ork missile attack.
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skutsch wrote:
I'd be interested to hear if anyone had some solid information. I'd love to see some Forbidden Stars expansions. If that's never going to happen a little angel in my heart just died. Probably blown up by an Ork missile attack.


Well I'm not sure how much factor Asmodee has in all this (probably a lot) but that's why I'm holding out hope that a new agreement will be made eventually, once GW swallows their pride and admits they need FFG to make some real money

To me there are really 2 possible reasons why everyone at FFG is so tight lipped about this at GenCon:

1 - they are in negotiations, in which case obviously it's against everyone's best interests to say anything until an agreement is made or isn't

2 - there is no chance of a "renewal" ; in which case FFG employees probably aren't going to tell us that because they still want us to buy whatever Warhammer stock they have left in their warehouse.
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What a bunch or crap.

GW just spent tons of money rebranding lots of their UK stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer"

GW also has an entire line of 40k models, rules, and paints that are going to be carried at big box stores like Target, and who knows ehre else this fall.

GW has the new 40k box set coming out soon.

GW also hss the new larger White Dwarf magazine kicking off again that is supposed to start supporting older game of theirs.


FFG needs licenses to make money. Look at SW, Game of Thrones, and Warhammer. Look at the amount of reboots they of old games. Frankly, thier original settings are either a pastiche of copied stuff, like Android, or super generic crap fantasy like Terrinoth.



FFG will do this new minis game for a few years then stop suddnely, maybe do a second ed with all new cards and dials, then stop entirely.


This is no threat at all to GW, same as their video game licensing could disappear and it wouldn't matter much.
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I am almost certain AMA only really wants FFG for their Star Wars and Games Of Thrones licenses and am pretty sure anything that is announced/coming out now was well into design/production before the acquisition. Anything that can swim up to a certain dollar value will stick around and everything else will be discontinued.

Im a fan of the Warhammer universe, but do not play 40k/AOS. GW about 8 months ago announced the relaunch of their specialist games line. Thus far all they have done is release updated versions of their older games(Warhammer Quest, Lost Patrol, the upcoming Blood Bowl 4ed and Epic 4ed) or games that IMO are made to rope people into getting into 40K/AOS(Deathwatch). They are slowly going back to their old(1990's) ways, which is ok but they are not moving the right direction at the moment. I still want to give them some more time before making a full judgement

GW is publicly traded and they have to have access to how well their licensed games were doing. They have access to market research and have an idea of what is selling and how much.

Now GW is still turning a profit according to their publicly available documents. Investors are going to see the missing money from the lack of board game licensing and either demand they partner with a new 3rd party or have the company join the modern board gaming industry. As a person who still has a place for GW in their heart from their childhood, I hope for the latter but do not see that happening.
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At OP - you're really off there, you claim to contradictory things - FFG losing their GW license and buying out rights to Warhammer... I have no idea what is the future of FFG's Warhammer games, would love to hear about expansions too, but I can say with certainty that GW will not sell the license, even if their tabletop effort fail completely the license itself brings really decent money thanks to video game adaptations, selling it would never be a good business move. And FFG starting their own miniature game shows clearly they have no hopes of getting Warhammer...
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DegenerateElite wrote:
What a bunch or crap.

GW just spent tons of money rebranding lots of their UK stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer"

GW also has an entire line of 40k models, rules, and paints that are going to be carried at big box stores like Target, and who knows ehre else this fall.

GW has the new 40k box set coming out soon.

GW also hss the new larger White Dwarf magazine kicking off again that is supposed to start supporting older game of theirs.


Easy now, I'm not trying to get you riled up. Clearly we have our hearts (currently anyway, I used to LOVE 40K) wrapped up in different companies.

However, none of your points really give me alot of confidence. Other than to say that GW has done 'well enough' recently to open these new markets. All I'm saying is I seriously doubt that the reason they have done 'well enough' recently is because of their tabletop line, as I still almost habitualy follow it. It's either related to their licensing or their videogame line, which is still a rather large pot.

Again, I'm no business guru or anything, this is all just supposition


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CDiablo wrote:
I am almost certain AMA only really wants FFG for their Star Wars and Games Of Thrones licenses and am pretty sure anything that is announced/coming out now was well into design/production before the acquisition. Anything that can swim up to a certain dollar value will stick around and everything else will be discontinued.

Im a fan of the Warhammer universe, but do not play 40k/AOS. GW about 8 months ago announced the relaunch of their specialist games line. Thus far all they have done is release updated versions of their older games(Warhammer Quest, Lost Patrol, the upcoming Blood Bowl 4ed and Epic 4ed) or games that IMO are made to rope people into getting into 40K/AOS(Deathwatch). They are slowly going back to their old(1990's) ways, which is ok but they are not moving the right direction at the moment. I still want to give them some more time before making a full judgement

GW is publicly traded and they have to have access to how well their licensed games were doing. They have access to market research and have an idea of what is selling and how much.

Now GW is still turning a profit according to their publicly available documents. Investors are going to see the missing money from the lack of board game licensing and either demand they partner with a new 3rd party or have the company join the modern board gaming industry. As a person who still has a place for GW in their heart from their childhood, I hope for the latter but do not see that happening.


You bring up some great points! Perhaps I am being negative because I also see basically no difference from their business plan now and in the 90s, and the industry is changing. Lost Patrol and Warhammer Quest are both kinda duds, again IMHO ('Quest' was fine, just nothing riveting), because they are basically retreads with little to no signs of all the progess the industry has made in the last 20 years, yet the pricing is still outrageous.

Of course they are still turning a profit, but like you I may just be jaded that they aren't showing those signs of joining the modern board game industry
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borsook wrote:
At OP - you're really off there, you claim to contradictory things - FFG losing their GW license and buying out rights to Warhammer... I have no idea what is the future of FFG's Warhammer games, would love to hear about expansions too, but I can say with certainty that GW will not sell the license, even if their tabletop effort fail completely the license itself brings really decent money thanks to video game adaptations, selling it would never be a good business move. And FFG starting their own miniature game shows clearly they have no hopes of getting Warhammer...


Well, to be fair I have stated multiple times I have no idea what the agreement was with GW. Whether or not it was a "rental" or an agreement to only make board/card games and not miniatures for a certain amount of time, I have no idea. The idea of "buying out" Warhammer was really just a fancy

I'm sure Runewars Miniatures Game can coexist with Warhammer (though how much GW will consider that a slap in the face I don't know), but in an ideal situation everything would just go back to the way it was, as I stated earlier, when everyone was making money



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DegenerateElite wrote:
What a bunch or crap.

GW just spent tons of money rebranding lots of their UK stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer"

GW also has an entire line of 40k models, rules, and paints that are going to be carried at big box stores like Target, and who knows ehre else this fall.

GW has the new 40k box set coming out soon.

GW also hss the new larger White Dwarf magazine kicking off again that is supposed to start supporting older game of theirs.


FFG needs licenses to make money. Look at SW, Game of Thrones, and Warhammer. Look at the amount of reboots they of old games. Frankly, thier original settings are either a pastiche of copied stuff, like Android, or super generic crap fantasy like Terrinoth.



FFG will do this new minis game for a few years then stop suddnely, maybe do a second ed with all new cards and dials, then stop entirely.


This is no threat at all to GW, same as their video game licensing could disappear and it wouldn't matter much.

Of course the idea of Games Workshop selling away any IP of theirs is utterly ridiculous (and they still use WHF themselves for background lore and some characters transplanted into AoS), but your last sentence is blatantly false; licensing revenue (i.e. mostly Total War) saved GW's collective arse in their recent annual fiscal report!

Which makes GW letting FFG's license expire even more ridiculous. I'm sure Warhammer wasn't at the top of Asmodee's priority list, but I seriously doubt they are the (or even a) responsible party for a renewal having fallen through, it rather likely being FFG's third-most profitable license. On the other hand, being too pig-headed to realise that the card-heavy and 28-mm-less Warhammer games FFG is making aren't competing with GW's bank-breaking miniatures-heavy specialist games they've gotten back into making would be perfectly typical for GeeDerp (as well as ignorant shareholders in general).

As for FFG's sudden new venture: We'll see. They do seem committed, but while I'm sure the gameplay will be good and Terrinoth does have some draw (solely due to Descent and other well-known games set therein), I do hope nobody up high expects/demands X-Wing-level sales figures.

And of course they don't compete with GW; Games Workshop isn't even in that corner of the market anymore! WHFB's dedicated rank and file players, however, have already split their allegiances between KoW and T9A, and Runewars obviously can't be (or rather isn't meant to be) played with players' existing miniature collections to begin with, so the target audience seems to be primarily new blood (and FlightPath players) and only secondarily current wargamers looking for a different feel (in addition to whichever wargame is their number one).
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twincast wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
What a bunch or crap.

GW just spent tons of money rebranding lots of their UK stores from "Games Workshop" to "Warhammer"

GW also has an entire line of 40k models, rules, and paints that are going to be carried at big box stores like Target, and who knows ehre else this fall.

GW has the new 40k box set coming out soon.

GW also hss the new larger White Dwarf magazine kicking off again that is supposed to start supporting older game of theirs.


FFG needs licenses to make money. Look at SW, Game of Thrones, and Warhammer. Look at the amount of reboots they of old games. Frankly, thier original settings are either a pastiche of copied stuff, like Android, or super generic crap fantasy like Terrinoth.



FFG will do this new minis game for a few years then stop suddnely, maybe do a second ed with all new cards and dials, then stop entirely.


This is no threat at all to GW, same as their video game licensing could disappear and it wouldn't matter much.

Of course the idea of Games Workshop selling away any IP of theirs is utterly ridiculous (and they still use WHF themselves for background lore and some characters transplanted into AoS), but your last sentence is blatantly false; licensing revenue (i.e. mostly Total War) saved GW's collective arse in their recent annual fiscal report!

It's true, it would have been a pretty bad year for GW without the licensing revenue.
But still, the royalties made up only 5% of their total revenue, and that's in a year where the royalties were a lot higher than in previous years (four times as much as the year before, probably thanks to Total War: Warhammer). And most of that comes from apps and computer games; royalties from FFG probably weren't much at all.
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Skippy668 wrote:

It's true, it would have been a pretty bad year for GW without the licensing revenue.
But still, the royalties made up only 5% of their total revenue, and that's in a year where the royalties were a lot higher than in previous years (four times as much as the year before, probably thanks to Total War: Warhammer). And most of that comes from apps and computer games; royalties from FFG probably weren't much at all.


Good points, the license is probably more valuable to FFG than GW in many cases. Just a matter of where the 2 sides are and who's being more stubborn

To me, and again this is just my (albiet completley ignorant) opinion, it seems like GW tanked on the miniatures line, then rented the license to FFG, made a nice profit (along with their fairly successful video game money) and is now using that money to force their way back into the miniatures game. All the while continuing the same bad practices that turned against them in the first place. Now they are being stubborn and refusing to renew the agreement with FFG because they think people will just buy whatever they tell them to buy.

Honestley, I feel that Warhammer is only still significant, in the tabletop world, because of FFG and their LCG and other products. Otherwise the only significant Warhammer products you would be seing today would be on a computer screen.
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Quote:
And of course they don't compete with GW; Games Workshop isn't even in that corner of the market anymore! WHFB's dedicated rank and file players, however, have already split their allegiances between KoW and T9A, and Runewars obviously can't be (or rather isn't meant to be) played with players' existing miniature collections to begin with, so the target audience seems to be primarily new blood (and FlightPath players) and only secondarily current wargamers looking for a different feel (in addition to whichever wargame is their number one).


This is pretty much how I see this whole thing. GW has a dedicated audience that will purchase their board games of varying quality whether or not the game is good. They can keep pushing those out for years until they get a good system and a full board game universe. Their miniatures are easily the most details, and they have already put a lot of support (not to mention existing fan content) over assembly and painting. They have a line of paints that are considered not only among the best, but the most friendly to the beginner. They have agreements with stores that would make Christian Pederson blush.

Conversely, FFG's miniatures, while good, don't reach the level of CMON, let alone GW. Indeed, highly detailed miniatures is a crowded field that FFG has yet to compete in. They service an audience that is generally adverse to painting. The flight path system is somewhat broadly known among gamers, but that audience has already been captured by FFG: people who play X-Wing, Armada, and Imperial Assault. Are they asking those people to sink another $100-300 in a new system? Will that even be enough for a new unit-dense combat system? Some of Wizkids' experiences might suggest otherwise. Indeed, as FFG's prices are rising, GW's board games are starting to look like a bargain.

Let's not forget that FFG is trying to replace the board games it is losing with a miniatures game. The products that are coming off the market aren't being replaced by something similar.
 
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I think FFG has a built in audience that will buy and praise whatever mediocre game is printed. This can be compared to GW.


Let's not forget, it was FFG that was bought out recently. And that was likely because of their existing Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Call of Cthulhu, 40k, Warhammer, and whatever else licenses.


They rely very heavily on these for income. They also remake lots of older titles, some tied to licenses, some not. Fortress America, Nexus ops, Merchant of Venus, DungeonQuest,Talisman, Battlelore, etc. There are tons of these remakes.

Lots of their products are retunings on existing games like Imperial Assault, RuneWars, etc.

They rely on redoing their own content over and over into new editions as well, sometimes improving it, sometimes not.

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My theory is that the license expired since the asmodee merger or a year after. This caused development to stop on the warhammer themed games like forbidden stars and conquest lcg. If I'm in the ballpark, the reasons are really only known to the negotiating parties, but with conquest being potentially supported for organized play into 2017, maybe talks have resumed and if they go well, new development can resume. Fingers crossed.

Personally I think GW should just work on lore, continue making fantastic minis and improve their products gameplay wise while still selling their license to board, card, and video game developers to keep warhammer relevant. All gaming products compete for gaming dollars on some level but FFG and asmodee have other licenses to fall back on and make products that don't compete with GW directly. I also think that GW should allow FFG to manufacture non-28mm miniatures for their board games since those who would even think about using them in a tabletop game wouldn't be buying GW style minis anyway.
 
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According to GW's financial report the profits they made from licensing were 78% PC games, 15% mobile and 7% 'other' (which is where I guess the FFG board games come in). I think with all the doom and gloom talk that always hangs around GW it's easy to forget how big they are and comparatively how small fry their agreement with FFG is.

Having said that I think their deal with FFG has been great for both parties and my personal feelings are that any question mark that hangs over the future of the partnership is probably more to do with Asmodee's take over of FFG rather than anything else. Perhaps the nature of the on-going relationship is being thrashed out still which is why we're not hearing anything from either side at the moment?
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panzer-attack wrote:
According to GW's financial report the profits they made from licensing were 78% PC games, 15% mobile and 7% 'other' (which is where I guess the FFG board games come in). I think with all the doom and gloom talk that always hangs around GW it's easy to forget how big they are and comparatively how small fry their agreement with FFG is.

Having said that I think their deal with FFG has been great for both parties and my personal feelings are that any question mark that hangs over the future of the partnership is probably more to do with Asmodee's take over of FFG rather than anything else. Perhaps the nature of the on-going relationship is being thrashed out still which is why we're not hearing anything from either side at the moment?

Huh. Calm rational post. What's that doing here?
 
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I too believe the licensing agreements between FFG and GW are coming to an end but I think it's actually more because of FFG then GW. My guess is that FFG wants better terms in the new deals then they've been getting now that they have been acquired by Asmodee and are willing to let GW walk if they don't get them.
 
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Not saying you are wrong but I think that would be against the idea of keeping their products supported for their customers. No reason for FFG to discontinue to develop and sell board and card games of this line. What is likely though is that the asmodee merger was a catalyst for this change in situation along with all the distribution changes.

I think this license issue stems more from the GW side rather than the FFG end.
 
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