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Subject: evaluating this game 13 years later? rss

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Geoff Conn
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So I keep getting not so subtle hints that Triumph & Tragedy is not the game that I want, and had someone point to EE as the game I may want.

I tried EE before. Didn't like it. I really wanted to like it, being an ETO grand strategy block game, was excited to try it..but the special ops blitz option allowed the german panzer armies to literally run donuts around my russian army on the steppes...at a scale that just caused my mind to break, ruining the experience.

Anyways...your thoughts on the game 13 years later? Has it stood the test of time for anyone and if so why?
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Alan Richbourg
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Well I'm not the one really to answer, since it was my panzer armies running donuts around your guys, but anywhoo ...

I don't know if I said this before, but the donuts thing is an admittedly (very) gamey effect, iirc, fear of which was supposed to induce in you the not gamey response of setting up to really defend in depth in Russia. Your backfield was just so open! I THINK (again iirc) defending in depth would have stopped all the running around, probably.

I played the 2 map Tournament scenario with a couple new guys last weekend. It was exciting right up until the very end, and as balanced as it could possibly be. I was surprised at how differently it played out compared to my previous solo efforts with the Tournament scenario. It was also different in Russia than the 1 map games, i.e. Leningrad and Moscow both fell but otherwise Russia was pretty strong. I think it's a perfectly brilliant game, as long as it is played within the constraints the potential for gameyness creates, i.e. played conservatively. I think it fits this quote by Napoleon: "The whole art of war consists in a well-reasoned and extremely circumspect defensive, followed by rapid and audacious attack."

One of those guys just volunteered to play the whole 1939 Campaign with me in September, and I'm really looking forward to that. It's easily in my top 4 or 5 favorite games.
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Mark J.
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I think it's stood the test of time well and is still the best game out there covering ETO at that level of abstraction. It's situated between Axis & Allies Europe 1940 and EastFront II in terms of scale and complexity. Fog of war, combined arms, strategic warfare, economic and political aspects of EE make it a far superior game to A&A in my opinion and for roughly the same investment in time. Well written Play Aids can help immensely in that respect.

Based on your comments on the blitz operations, I suggest you give EastFront II a try if you have not already. It can be combined with WestFront and Euro front to cover the entire ETO from 1936 to 1945.

That's my quick response.
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Martin Gallo
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All game designers take liberties with reality and you just have to pick your way around them to have fun. Not all of them work for all people, which is why we have so many games.

Have you tried East Front or HoldFast?
 
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john f stup
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Talonz wrote:
So I keep getting not so subtle hints that Triumph & Tragedy is not the game that I want, and had someone point to EE as the game I may want.

I tried EE before. Didn't like it. I really wanted to like it, being an ETO grand strategy block game, was excited to try it..but the special ops blitz option allowed the german panzer armies to literally run donuts around my russian army on the steppes...at a scale that just caused my mind to break, ruining the experience.

Anyways...your thoughts on the game 13 years later? Has it stood the test of time for anyone and if so why?

once you learn how to play the Soviets, the axis will be stopped and the soviets can start to counter attack. both sides must watch their supply lines.
 
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Geoff Conn
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I have tried Eastfront, didn't overly care for it and how the supply/HQ activation worked, constantly degraded. I prefer the Lost Victory style HQ activation. Also very different scale of course.

I have not tried Holdfast, that is on my radar.

Alan, let me respond with another quote "He who defends everything, defends nothing." My plan was to cede territory where I would lose it anyways, see which way you went and then respond with a hammerblow counterattack, but that opportunity never came, as the game allows incredible, even incredulous, movement via special ops. Abstractions and compromises are one thing, complete breaks from reality are another.

I thought T&T was perfect in many ways but for its wonky 'lets you and him fight' nature of the 3 sided game.
 
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Mark J.
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Getting back to the original question, I think Europe Engulfed has stood the test of time. It's still the best simulation game covering the whole ETO that is playable in 8-10 hours.

I think it could use a minor face lift in a 3rd edition. My recommendations are: tighten up the rules as much as possible; incorporate some of the new optional rules; create a turn-zero chart option that would optionally replace the 1939 scenario without having a fixed setup as found in the 1941 scenario.

T&T is a very good game as well but is a different type of game than EE.
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Andrew Harding
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It's still my favorite strategic WW2 game and one of my favorites overall. There are things I would tweak but overall it's quite solid and more subtle than it appears on the surface.
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