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Apocrypha Adventure Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Will Arkham LCG kill this game before it is even born? rss

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Antonio B-D
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I am a long time backer of this game and have been very excited for it. So excited in fact that I have been oblivious to the long delay past the kickstarter launch date. I wanted a good game, and I prefer a good game later than a quick game sooner.

But, recently I have learnt of the Arkham LCG from FFG and I am starting to fear that once Arkahm is here I won't play Apocrypha any longer, and that is if Apocrypha reaches me before Arkham (which I seriously doubt it).

Maybe, when I get them both (and I will) I will find them different enough to justify playing them both, and this is just a small rant without basis. But, I fear that they are going to scratch the same itch, Terror, character upgrade, card game.

It is a pity and I really hope I am mistaken.

 
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Michael Convento
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I am also a backer of Aprocypha and initially had the same thought. For me, it does seem like it will scratch the same itch, but I am ok with that. The itch is big enough to support both games (and should probably see a dermatologist). I love games that have these campaign and character growth mechanic and I don't see too many games out there that offer it
 
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Mark Schipper
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I'm in the same boat as you guys (Apoc Backer, and AH LCG wanter). I think that the thing Apocrypha has in its favour is it will have a lot more story from the get go without having to wait for the story to unfold via adventure packs, etc.

I'm sure the Lone Shark guys checked out AHLCG at gencon and might still have time for minor tweaks if they need it. Just a guess though.
 
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Trent Y.
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The Cthluthu mythos has been done to death. The world holds no more surprises. It is the same thing over and over again. Investigators. Cultists. Monsters. Insanity. Auto-death against the big bad.

Arkham LCG might be fun, but it will be a re-hash of everything that's already out there. FFG makes good games, but I for one have a love-hate relationship with their games. Often, they put in such a high degree of luck that winning isn't about being good at the game, but being lucky enough to win.

I'm an Apocrypha backer as well. What sold me was the world and the idea that you can unlock your memories through playing. That sounds quite interesting. I will probably check out Arkham LCG because I love games, but hands down, the Apocrypha world is going to be 100 times more interesting.
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Tony C
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I backed the full box of Apocrypha, and am interested in checking out Arkham LCG.
However, based on my (admittedly minimal) information of both, I'm still leaning toward Apoc.
1 - Already "bought" it
2 - Bought the whole thing, so even if I don't play all of the chapters, I don't need to do the LCG release thing (granted, I'm assuming that's how Arkham will work)
3 - While I still like the Arkham mythos, Apoc's chapters each sound like a different take on "urban fantasy" and that is appealing.
4 - The lateral nature of the game, being able to move between chapters in whatever order
5 - The "memory fragment" concept sounds very intriguing.

That said - will Arkham kill Apoc before Apoc even comes out? For the general, non-KS public, maybe. I know Selinker et al have a known name in the industry, which is good - but so does Arkham and the FFG LCG concept.
I hope it doesn't kill it though, I think they're different enough that there's room for both. And Apoc has enough difference that it "should" see a wider audience.
 
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Antonio B-D
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Really I think that Apocrypha's survival will depend on timing. IF it comes out after Arkham and after one or two big expansions it will probably be dead. If it comes out before it might survive.

Considering that the release is nowhere to be seen, I wouldn't bet on Apocrypha.
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Will Martin
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The two are COMPLETELY different genres though.

Not gaming genres, but just genres of flavor.

Arkham Horror is completely Lovecraftian.

Apocrypha is a mix of dark fantasy and almost grimm fairy tales.

I personally am not a fan of Lovecraftian nor are a bunch of my friends, so like any tabletop RPG (which these card games resemble more than anything else), it will depend on the flavor more than the crunch whether these are successful.

If they play similarly, people are going to choose the one that appeals to them more.
 
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Antonio B-D
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Rimewisp wrote:
The two are COMPLETELY different genres though.

Not gaming genres, but just genres of flavor.

Arkham Horror is completely Lovecraftian.

Apocrypha is a mix of dark fantasy and almost grimm fairy tales.

I personally am not a fan of Lovecraftian nor are a bunch of my friends, so like any tabletop RPG (which these card games resemble more than anything else), it will depend on the flavor more than the crunch whether these are successful.

If they play similarly, people are going to choose the one that appeals to them more.


This is splitting hairs. To say that fighting a Vampire in a lovecraftian world or fighting a vampire in the Apocrypha world is a bit too much of hair splitting. The theme for all purposes is the same: Deck construction + manipulation RPG on a horror theme with the possibility of a campaign setting.
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Austin Fleming
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You could say that Star Wars and Star Trek are the same because they are both sci-fi set in space. Yet a lot of people have strong opinions about which one is better and some hate one or the other. Sometimes theme makes a lot of difference.
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Craig Stockwell
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I don't think either will kill the other. I did back Apocrypha, and I do own an FFG LCG (LOTR). Here's what I see --

1. Entry cost. AH LCG is $40 (for 1-2 players). Apoc was $66 for 1-6 on KS, so estimating $80 MSRP.

2. Value. AH LCG is $40 for 1-2P for 226 cards. Apoc Revelation box is 515 cards for 1-6P for $80 MSRP (best guess). Apoc full box was $99 for 1,232 cards on KS, estimating $130 MSRP. If AH follows LOTR, an extra 165 cards (e.g.: Flame of the West) will run $30 ... so presuming equal [re]play value for the same card count, AH LCG will need six FotW-sized boxes for an MSRP total of $220 in order to match the full Apocrypha set.

3. Legacy-esque feel. Apocrypha's [memory] fragments really set a different tone for an ongoing game campaign -- better than an evolving deck [between scenarios].

4. Setting. Lovecraftian Pulp vs. modern urban & folk horror. It's fair to say they're both horror, but the subgenres are markedly different (see Star Trek v. Star Wars above *g*).

5. Art. This isn't a dig on FFG -- rather, it's extra praise for LSG. I've seen a lot of the art (maybe 150-ish pieces) for Apocrypha and they've ranged from excellent to bloody stunning (pun intended). More than Echo's work for the Shadowrun Tarot Deck, more than Kobold Press' pieces in their Southlands RPG supplements ... Apocrypha art is stunningly good.

I totally acknowledge that timing isn't trivial -- AH LCG is at the printers presently, while Apocrypha hasn't gone yet. And if someone is aching for a co-op DB in the horror genre -- and hasn't taken the time to 'research' -- I could definitely see where they might jump on AH LCG ... and later discover Apocrypha would have suited them better. At this point, I'm personally hoping for an October release for Apocrypha. If someone drops $40 for the AH LCG in September ... it's not a stretch to imagine they'll pick up Apocrypha as a Halloween or Christmas treat.

Disclaimer: I've playtested Apocrypha more than a couple times since the KS campaign; I've not PT'd AH LCG, but I've followed its pending release, 'cause I love co-ops, deckbuilders, and the horror genre (setting & art).
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Will Martin
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abendoso wrote:
Rimewisp wrote:
The two are COMPLETELY different genres though.

Not gaming genres, but just genres of flavor.

Arkham Horror is completely Lovecraftian.

Apocrypha is a mix of dark fantasy and almost grimm fairy tales.

I personally am not a fan of Lovecraftian nor are a bunch of my friends, so like any tabletop RPG (which these card games resemble more than anything else), it will depend on the flavor more than the crunch whether these are successful.

If they play similarly, people are going to choose the one that appeals to them more.


This is splitting hairs. To say that fighting a Vampire in a lovecraftian world or fighting a vampire in the Apocrypha world is a bit too much of hair splitting. The theme for all purposes is the same: Deck construction + manipulation RPG on a horror theme with the possibility of a campaign setting.


For you maybe, but not for me. Or other people.

I choose which games to play mostly by their theme and lovecraft versus dark fantasy is a HUGE difference. To me. I know a lot of people who are the exact same way.

Art style, theme, characters (some of my friends don't buy games that don't have an about even split of male/female characters, no matter how good the game is), etc.
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Fred Cromer
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goo

I love both games.

I can not lie.

Just bring it.

Lets get this party started.

Mind fragments Oh my..........

Get it together my brother ...

Gaming is a journey of winding roads.

Every thing we do is a state of mind.

Do you dig.

The Fabulous Freebird




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Pasquale Cirone
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Well, did the Lord of the Rings LCG kill the Pathfinder ACGs? Those are both fantasy realms immediately comparable to Arkham/Apocrypha.
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Mike Waleke
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grosmorne wrote:
malakim0 wrote:
Well, did the Lord of the Rings LCG kill the Pathfinder ACGs? Those are both fantasy realms immediately comparable to Arkham/Apocrypha.


A difference here is that Pathfinder already had an established brand and fanbase.


By that rationale doesn't all PACG fans = an established fan base for Apocrypha?
 
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Craig Stockwell
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grosmorne wrote:
malakim0 wrote:
Well, did the Lord of the Rings LCG kill the Pathfinder ACGs? Those are both fantasy realms immediately comparable to Arkham/Apocrypha.

A difference here is that Pathfinder already had an established brand and fanbase.

It's reasonable to believe some PACG owners will pick up Apocrypha, since it's by the same designers -- much like some FFG LCG owners will pick up Arkham (because it's FFG).
 
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Jason Brown
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toon_ace wrote:
I totally acknowledge that timing isn't trivial -- AH LCG is at the printers presently, while Apocrypha hasn't gone yet. And if someone is aching for a co-op DB in the horror genre -- and hasn't taken the time to 'research' -- I could definitely see where they might jump on AH LCG ... and later discover Apocrypha would have suited them better. At this point, I'm personally hoping for an October release for Apocrypha. If someone drops $40 for the AH LCG in September ... it's not a stretch to imagine they'll pick up Apocrypha as a Halloween or Christmas treat.

This is the issue. FFG and Cthulhu have both name recognition and 1st to market advantages. Of course every one on this forum knows the difference between the two games, but a vast majority of gamers won't. Like it or not, these two games will be in direct competition and Lone Shark didn't do itself any favors with the (at least) 7 month delay.

I believe Apocrypha will be the better game and Arkham LCG won't be able to match it in content for years, but the ANA marketing and distribution capabilities may be too much to overcome. I fear Apocrypha will be a one and done and end up a cult favorite among Lone Shark fans.
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Antonio B-D
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
toon_ace wrote:
I totally acknowledge that timing isn't trivial -- AH LCG is at the printers presently, while Apocrypha hasn't gone yet. And if someone is aching for a co-op DB in the horror genre -- and hasn't taken the time to 'research' -- I could definitely see where they might jump on AH LCG ... and later discover Apocrypha would have suited them better. At this point, I'm personally hoping for an October release for Apocrypha. If someone drops $40 for the AH LCG in September ... it's not a stretch to imagine they'll pick up Apocrypha as a Halloween or Christmas treat.

This is the issue. FFG and Cthulhu have both name recognition and 1st to market advantages. Of course every one on this forum knows the difference between the two games, but a vast majority of gamers won't. Like it or not, these two games will be in direct competition and Lone Shark didn't do itself any favors with the (at least) 7 month delay.

I believe Apocrypha will be the better game and Arkham LCG won't be able to match it in content for years, but the ANA marketing and distribution capabilities may be too much to overcome. I fear Apocrypha will be a one and done and end up a cult favorite among Lone Shark fans.


My thoughts exactly. Except for the part where you say that Apocrypha will be the better game. The more involved and complex, sure, better... the jury needs to see both games before deciding.

Having to compete with such a power house and being much more complex I don't think it has the potential to compete and survive. It is a shame, but even I who loves to play complex games (18xx, OCS, etc.) tend to find more time for the quick and dirty fun.
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Craig Stockwell
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abendoso wrote:
Having to compete with such a power house and being much more complex I don't think it has the potential to compete and survive. It is a shame, but even I who loves to play complex games (18xx, OCS, etc.) tend to find more time for the quick and dirty fun.

While I suspect it's true that shorter games are played more often (esp. when time is limited), I don't think that means they're more popular with their players. For example, I like Brawl (playtime: ~60 seconds) ... and I like Small World (playtime: ~60 minutes). I've probably spent around the same amount of time playing each. The speed of play (and thereby times brought to the table) doesn't translate into me liking Brawl more.

Likely the primary audience for AH LCG will be the intersection of "FFG LCG fans" and "horror genre fans" -- and for Apocrypha, it's "[P]ACG fans" and "horror genre fans". What will be interesting is to see how both intersection groups draw in outsiders.

If LSG hadn't made such a big splash with the Pathfinder ACG they did for Paizo, I'd be less upbeat about their chances; I'm not saying they're going to move more units (or value) of Apocrypha than FFG will for AH LCG -- but as far as how much 'potential market' of Apocrypha is lost to AH LCG (or the reverse) ... I'd be surprised if either side is really damaged by the other. Really, I hope to see each _enhance_ the sales of the other.
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Pat Mccrotch
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The Cthluthu mythos has been done to death. The world holds no more surprises. It is the same thing over and over again. Investigators. Cultists. Monsters. Insanity. Auto-death against the big bad.


Completely agree, that this is the way FF does "Lovecraftian", i.e. badly, and it's done to death. This company doesn't believe players should win the game because the Lovecraftian universe is unforgiving. Which is nonsense, investigators and victims should die, go crazy, etc, that doesn't mean the players have to lose. It's like writing a book about the mythos and because it's an uncaring universe, setting the book on fire instead of finishing it. Making players lose a game continually is subverting the medium, it's not being novel and Lovecraftian. Games made to lose get played less.

At any rate, totally agree on that point - they have one approach and they just rehash it (and the lame characters) in each type of game they put out.
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Trent Y.
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Now that Arkahm LCG is out, the gameplay appears to be solid (although I personally don't like the chaos bag 'variable'). However the "campaign" appears to be pretty weak overall. The core box has a 3 story campaign and then you are done. It appears that you are to reset your characters for each campaign. The campaign idea is not tacked on, by any means, but it is pretty limited.

Apocrypha may or may not handle the campaign better, but by all accounts, it should (as Pathfinder allows you to run a character through a very long campaign).

The Arkham game is good but it by no means eclipses Apocrypha. Apocrypha will definitely have it's own style/mood and feel.
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Antonio B-D
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Your comparison is a bit unfair. You are comparing the base game of Arkham against the full game plus expansions of apocrypha. You have to compare same value. I have pledged for 99usd that is the base game, a deluxe expansion and 1 chapter.
 
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Trent Y.
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abendoso wrote:
Your comparison is a bit unfair. You are comparing the base game of Arkham against the full game plus expansions of apocrypha. You have to compare same value. I have pledged for 99usd that is the base game, a deluxe expansion and 1 chapter.


Price was not in your original assessment so I don't see why it's relavent here.

The core set of Arkham Horror LCG will get you a 1-2 player game with 119 player cards and 110 scenario cards. Buying a second set will allow you to play 1-4 players but you gets a ton of repeat and pointless cards. AH LCG is co-op vs the game. The initial campaign is 3 missions long. Campaign progress appears to be exclusive to the campaign, meaning when you buy the next set, you reset your characters for that campaign. It would likely be easy to ignore this and just keep playing your character. AH LCG is listed at $40 on Amazon but I bet that is high. You could probably get it for $30 but you'll have to buy 2 core sets to play more than 2 players.

The core Apocrapha set is 1-6 players and 500 cards. 90 cards for the scenarios. I do not know how many missions the initial scenario is, but if we take Pathfinder as a guide, there will be 3 'training' missions and 5 story missions. Further expansions will NOT reset your character allowing you to continue playing that character. The game can be played solo, vs an overlord or even in RPG format (which is kinda weak IMO because it seems to be presented in "play this board game however you like as a RPG" which you could technically do with any board game on the market). The core game is listed at $66 in the KSer and I don't know what it will retail for.

The bottom line is, as per the rules, Apocrapha has a long term on going campaign. With just the base set of either game, you will have more missions and more options with Apocrapha but you also get the bonus that if you purchase future scenarios, you will be able to keep your progress. Also one core set of Apocrapha lets you play 1-6 players, whereas one core set of AH LCG only allows 1-2. Obviously there is different value to different players here.

 
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Antonio B-D
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Of course there are different ways of calculating value, but you cannot say that AH has less replayability just because you are only considering the base game. Unfortunately by the time Apocrypha is out there will probably be the base game, the extra mission, the big box expansion, and almost certainly 2 or 3 mini expansions. If there is a bigger delay with Apocrypha (not unreasonable) AH will probably have much more content than Apocrypha... and a year after its release AH will have doubled or tripled Apocrypha in content and only then might the 2 expansions be out.

I stand by my call. Unless the game play is amazing, it will have a hard time competing with AH
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calpurnio pison

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having played a couple of plays to arkham horror: lcg, and obviously none to apocrypha (but i did play over 300 plays to pathfinder acg), i noticed what i prefer the pathfinder acg style over arkham horror lcg style:

in the arkham horror lcg play you have fun playing through story, or not, but your deck is not essentially changed. if you fail in the scenario (fail in a wide meaning, because thematically you can consider escape as a non-fail), all you gain is experience of play, and few stuff more: victory points, and may be some card.

in pathfinder style, regardless of you win or fail the goal of the scenario, your deck (and that is, at least, a big quantity of personality in your character style play) can be substantially changed. the progression is tangible. in fact, when i fail in a pathfinder scenario, i do not feel it is a total mess, the character rise more powerful usually (or same powerful, but in a different way).

maybe you do not find the difference relevant, but to me it's a wide world. failing in lord of the rings lcg or arkham horror lcg makes me close the game and put it in the shelve. i never had not that feeling with pathfinder acg.

obviously, here i am extrapolating that the strongh points of pathfinder will be the strong points of apocrypha, and may be it is a wrong way. it's true too that a couple of plays to arkham horror lcg is not a great sample of plays. but for now, it is all i have.
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Craig Stockwell
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For Apocrypha, $66 was the pledge for the Revelation Box and two chapters (Skinwalkers & Candlepoint); $99 was the pledge for the Revelation Box and ten chapters.

The KS campaign page also included the information, "Each chapter has nine missions you can choose from."

That's 90 missions. Then add in the nine cross-chapter missions (Update #10), and that's 99 missions. Then -- for those who want more RPG in their ACG, there's nine bonus RPG missions (Update #17) ... however, I'm not considering those, since not everyone will play Guided mode.

While I plan to check out Arkham ACG, I don't think in a dollars-per-experience ratio, it will match Apocrypha's $99 for 99 missions.

Arkham starts with five characters, while Apocrypha starts with 18 characters (I don't know if any promo characters are planned). I don't believe LCGs add playable characters with xpacs (or not many), so I think replayability for Apocrypha is much higher for that facet.

...

In the nearly four months since this thread started, Arkham has released, and Apocrypha still hasn't gone to the printer (scheduled to in December) -- so Arkham was first-to-market, but it looks like Apocrypha will dominate for variety and replayability once it comes out, until such time as Arkham puts out six FotW-sized xpacs (if FFG applies LOTR's model to Arkham), and adds more than a dozen characters.

-- so no, I still don't think Arkham will kill Apocrypha before it releases. =D I think they'll both be fine games.
 
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