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Subject: New to the game - where to start rss

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Ferry Van der schans
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Hi you all.
I am in search of a deep adventure game without a DM/GM. This game could be Co-op or versus, both are fine. I own D&D castle ravenloft boardgame and Runebound 2nd ed. Both are nice and fun, but limited in their own way.
D&D boardgame lacks a deep leveling up system and has limited items to use. It also lacks a grand campaign.
Runebound has limited depth in gameplay IMO. There is leveling and a game can feel like a campaign. Still it lacks certain depth and epicness (for the lack of any other word to discribe it). Epicness I strangely do feel in gameplay with D&D boardgame.

I have been looking for other games in the adventuring genre. My brother owns pathfinder ACG, which is really nice, but lacks a map of somesort. And you are a bit disconnected to the story when chucking dice to defeat "cards".
We also looked at 7th continent, but I can not get my head around that.
Other dungeon crawlers are just that... dungeon crawlers. Which is not a bad thing, but I am looking for something more.

I looked at Mage Knight but the mechanics hold me back to dive in.

Now I came across Magic Realm. I read some reviews and looked at the components. I really looks appealing. I am not new to making a PnP copy of a game, so that should not pose a problem. But... where do I start learning the game? regular 2nd ed rules? newly unofficial 3nd ed rules? tutorial rulebook I found in the files section? should I first make a physical copy or first read the rules? should I watch youtube video's about setup/gameplay?

this game really seems like a beast to master, but i also looks like everything I am looking for and more. It feels like every game something epic would take place which you could possibly remember years after the play took place. I would like a game which makes these memories, even if it is the memory of getting killed on turn 1 in some disasterous way.

so long story short:
does the game provide me the things I am hunting for?
is the game worth the timeinvestment to learn it and play it?
where in the name of the biggest baddy in the Magic Realm do I start?

thanks in advance for any and all advice. thumbsup
(and your time you spend to read all of my post thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup )
 
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John James
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^Yes.

You should find the Book of Learning and download Realmspeak. I'll look for links. It took me three days of hard study to get a good grasp of what is possible in Magic Realm. Great game.

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/79698/magic-realm-tutoria...
http://realmspeak.dewkid.com/
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Cdr Jameson
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M4stermage wrote:
...D&D boardgame lacks a deep leveling up system
Magic Realm's levelling is one of it's weak points. You're not really levelling a character more levelling your understanding and tactics...
M4stermage wrote:
...It also lacks a grand campaign.
So does Magic Realm, without user made content.
M4stermage wrote:
...I looked at Mage Knight but the mechanics hold me back to dive in.
Mage Knight's mechanics aren't for everyone but then neither are MR's. Pages have been written about the 'innovative' and 'wonderful' mechanics in MR but I would venture they're harder to grasp than Mage Knight's ruleset.
Source: picked up the solo rule of Mage Knight after watching Ricky Royal and 1 playthrough and Sucessfully taught a friend the game. Magic Realm - nearly 2 years in and I understand moving and searching. The rest of the game Combat, Magic, Followers etc. and theres a lot of etc. remain a dark art.
M4stermage wrote:
...but i also looks like everything I am looking for and more.
I feel the same but the learning curve should not be underestimated.
M4stermage wrote:
...does the game provide me the things I am hunting for?
I'm not convinced that it does but I would never say ' dont try it'. I would recommend diving in, download Realm Speak and mess around to see for yourself. You might find things in the game you didn't realise you were looking for.
M4stermage wrote:
...is the game worth the timeinvestment to learn it and play it?
I hope so. If you're having fun and enjoying the time spent learning the game then to me it is worth it. If it starts to not be fun do something else, i.e. play a different game.
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Carel Teijgeler
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M4stermage wrote:
Hi you all.
I am in search of a deep adventure game without a DM/GM. This game could be Co-op or versus, both are fine. I own D&D castle ravenloft boardgame and Runebound 2nd ed. Both are nice and fun, but limited in their own way.
(...)
Now I came across Magic Realm. I read some reviews and looked at the components. I really looks appealing. I am not new to making a PnP copy of a game, so that should not pose a problem. But... where do I start learning the game? regular 2nd ed rules? newly unofficial 3nd ed rules? tutorial rulebook I found in the files section? should I first make a physical copy or first read the rules? should I watch youtube video's about setup/gameplay?

this game really seems like a beast to master, but i also looks like everything I am looking for and more. It feels like every game something epic would take place which you could possibly remember years after the play took place. I would like a game which makes these memories, even if it is the memory of getting killed on turn 1 in some disasterous way.

so long story short:
does the game provide me the things I am hunting for?
is the game worth the timeinvestment to learn it and play it?
where in the name of the biggest baddy in the Magic Realm do I start?
(...)

The V2 rule book as a starting point with the V3 rule book as a reference.
Book of Learning to see what options you vcan have as a character.
RealmSpeak to see whether the game is for you. The Combat phase may resolved too quick for a newby.

If interested, you can try and play this game. I own a copy of the game. I frequently visit Spelgroep Phoenix in Capelle. Then we can arrange an intro game (Tuesday evening every week or a Game day on Saterday). The set up requires some time.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Another yes! There is an epicness to everything in this game. The play, the rules, the PnP build.

As John said, take a look at the Book of Learning for a tutorial. I am using the fan-made 3rd edition rules. I'll also add a second to the RealmSpeak suggestion--it really helps seeing the game run with the computer moderating the rules.

I read the rules and tutorials while building my PnP set. I also got RealmSpeak up and running, so had a few PC-moderated games under my belt when I finally got the cardboard on the table.
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Stephan Valkyser
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Also, you should google for some videos with Magic Realm content. There have been site with excellent walk-through Videos. Most of these sites are no longer existent but there are archives on the web which still hold them.


For example:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/183343/video-character-exam...

I am not sure whether these links still work ...
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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BookShelf Games' video instruction series is also recommended: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheDochogan/videos
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Hector Flores
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If Mage Knight scares you then you should run screaming from Magic Realm. It's a great game, but it took me 5 years to learn by myself (reading casually, putting it away, then taking it out again after several months - and even then I made many mistakes). You can do it faster if you are dedicated and/or have a teacher.

I'd recommend taking anijunk's offer to teach a game then decide on how much of an investment in time/energy then.

Cheers!
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Ferry Van der schans
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Wauw. In 3 hours so many responses. Thanks!
I will need Some time to read them all and look at your advice. Thanks a lot. And thanks for the kind warnings too
 
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GodRob
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I think Dungeons & Dragons: Temple of Elemental Evil Board Game may address some of your concerns. It plays like Castle Ravenloft but also has leveling and a campaign.

Oh, and make sure you try Magic Realm at some point too.
 
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Jay Richardson
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Ferry Van der schans wrote:
I am in search of a deep adventure game without a DM/GM. This game could be Co-op or versus, both are fine.

Magic Realm does not use a DM/GM, and whether players cooperate or fight each other is entirely up to the players.

Ferry Van der schans wrote:
D&D boardgame lacks a deep leveling up system and has limited items to use. It also lacks a grand campaign.

Basic Magic Realm does not use an experience-based leveling up system: you are given a fully-developed character, and a breathtakingly dangerous game world, and the rest is up to you. There are, however, many ways to "enhance" your character: magical treasures, new spells, better equipment, and powerful mercenaries that you can hire.

But Magic Realm does include optional rules for a "Development Game" in which you start with a weak Level 1 character (normal characters are Level 4) and try to increase your character's level over the course of many games... all the way up to (potentially) Level 10. This, however, is one of the most difficult forms of the game, as even expert players will struggle to accomplish anything with a Level 1 character.

Magic Realm does not have any campaign aspect: there's no background story or ultimate goal. It instead has a wide-open world in which you can do whatever you want. There are, however, player-developed variants that do add a campaign/quest aspect if you want that.

Ferry Van der schans wrote:
this game really seems like a beast to master,

devil ...you have no idea!

Ferry Van der schans wrote:
It feels like every game something epic would take place which you could possibly remember years after the play took place.

This won't occur in every game, but it certainly can occur. Even veteran players can be surprised by the things that can happen in a game.
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Black Bart
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does the game provide me the things I am hunting for? See N (that's the scribe of the Book of Learning).

where in the name of the biggest baddy in the Magic Realm do I start? Download the third edition rules and read the section 'Advice to beginners'. As suggested there, you really need to learn the game in steps. Download the Book of Learning and read the first Chapter to get an idea of the play style. A teaching game from someone who knows it already, is by far the best introduction you could get.

Wait with Realmspeak until you understand the game (once you do, it's a great way to get many plays in quickly and practice). Realmspeak doesn't teach you the game though, and you don't want to learn the program and the game at the same time.

There's no telling if you will like Magic Realm or not, but if you do this is one game on which you can spend oodles of time. Learning the game, learning the strategies (the 16 characters all have different approaches for how they can be played effectively), and a game that really is different everytime you play it (without any need to buy expansions to keep it fresh).
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Ferry Van der schans
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Thanks again for all The replies. They really help me. I downloaded The book of learning and just started reading. Now I am just halfway The explenation of The white knight. I am just getting started and allready The game had its hooks in me.

So there is no real leveling system. That is something I misread. I wanted a game where your character could grow in power. Now I understand in MR your character could get better by finding equipment and such. I will just have to find out if that gives me enough feel of growth.

Complexity of The game does not scare me. As long as The rules make logical sense it is fine. Having a big sandbox world to do whatever you like within The borders of The rules, seems very fun. Allthough some Players don't like this because they need a sense of direction to guide them. I like making my own story and mistakes.

I will download The 3rd ed rules and continue reading The book of learning. The game intrigues me.
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Stephan Valkyser
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M4stermage wrote:
Now I understand in MR your character could get better by finding equipment and such. I will just have to find out if that gives me enough feel of growth.


The power increase is huge. Even in a standard one-month-game a character may increase his power (by hiring followers and finding/buying equipment and treasures) to some extent that I would rate as four-to-five times as powerful as at the start.
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Black Bart
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To give an example of upgrading, in my last game I played the Pilgrim who has a very fast but weak attack. The Belt of Strength turned that into a powerful and fast attack, but that only became useful when I obtained a great sword to replace my paltry staff (I had also found special Boots to let me move around with heavy equipment). I noticed just in time that I still had a problem to 'alert' my weapon and strike in the same round, but that was resolved when I found the Power Gauntlets. So finally a great fighter but still a vulnerable one as I tired quickly and had no armour protection.

Upgrading is a key part of the game, but you don't get better just by killing a few things (something I've found corny in many RPGs). Killing things may allow you to find what you need to upgrade though.
 
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Richard Mitchell
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Glad to hear you are giving MR a look!

I primarily started playing again because I needed a solo game, and really enjoy traditional war-games and some RPGs. MR fits the bill perfectly. Ive played Mage Knight, as well as many others and MR is the only one to really hold my interest for repeat adventure.

The rules are complex, however to be honest if you learn them in chunks its a system you won't soon want to let go ... Combat is amazing, and the depth you can bring to this game with all the elements used from the rules ( magic, trading, exploring. and ofc battle) I find isn't rivaled by many games.

My recommendation would be to watch a few videos on the set up and gameplay. Once you have things set up ( which could take a good hour first time) you can run a character through a few days of adventure, getting down some of the basics. I started playing this game as a junior high student when I got it for my birthday, I'm sure back we had a few of the rules jumbled as we were 12 yrs old using the original 32 pg rules. But now with the 3.1 rule book, the possibility of PnP game parts that are a bit more user friendly ... this game is just waiting to be played.

Enjoy.

PS The fine folks here can answer any rules questions you get stuck on as well.
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Ferry Van der schans
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Thanks again all of you for all The responses. I am shocked, in a positive way, there is such an active community for this old game. I never could have guessed I would het this much response and there is so much rich support tot be wound for The game. It makes me only want tot learn The game even more.

I will view some video's for sure. And will delve deeper in The book of learning. Nice tot know if I have questions there are people here that want tot answer them thumbsupthumbsup
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Chris Laudermilk
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urbanus wrote:

Wait with Realmspeak until you understand the game (once you do, it's a great way to get many plays in quickly and practice). Realmspeak doesn't teach you the game though, and you don't want to learn the program and the game at the same time.


I'll mostly disagree with that. Where I will agree is that you don't want to go into the program completely cold; read up on the rules a little so you have at least an idea of how things work. However, using RS once you have begun reading the rules helps to see them in action. Particularly the combat where RS logs every step of a round and shows you in very clear steps how it got to the result. I found that part a huge help in wrapping my head around how combat works. By the time I got my PnP finished the basic actions were already easy to do, and combat was not too much of a chore to run manually.

M4stermage wrote:
Thanks again all of you for all The responses. I am shocked, in a positive way, there is such an active community for this old game. I never could have guessed I would het this much response and there is so much rich support tot be wound for The game. It makes me only want tot learn The game even more.

I will view some video's for sure. And will delve deeper in The book of learning. Nice tot know if I have questions there are people here that want tot answer them thumbsupthumbsup

It is amazing how active the community is for a 35+ years OOP game. Just goes to show the staying power this game has. Part of the community seems to have been here from the start, and some major contributors (like, for example, Jay) are still around and posting. It's a huge help to us newbies.
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Carel Teijgeler
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claudermilk wrote:
Particularly the combat where RS logs every step of a round and shows you in very clear steps how it got to the result. I found that part a huge help in wrapping my head around how combat works.

And here I have to disagree with you on this.

RS leads you through the different stages in the Encounter and Melee phases of an Encounter. But:
- at every stage you have to check a lot of data (weapons, spells, available chits), which are covered under many tabs
- when you are at the next stage and remembered you have forgotten something, you cannot step back.
- When the final stage (Combat result) is shown, you can check how the battle evolved (why were you killed or did get wounds) the explanation is very basic and not informative, even for an experienced player (and I am not an experienced player, at all).

You can point to a Harm Effect Table, as some fans has put in the file section.

I think more important in understanding Combat in MR is the Hit & Miss Table. This table is not in any version of the rule books, but published (by Richard Hamblen) in The General vol. 16 no. 4. (Perhaps my interpretation of that table gives an oversimplified impression of how Combat really works).

Actually, my advice is to read on and learn the Combat rules in the later stages of learning.
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Per Fischer
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Great thread - I also bought a copy of MR recently after playing a lot of Mage Knight.

There's also a very detailed how to play podcast somewhere, but I couldn't find it right now, will try later.

Carel, I am based in Den Haag, and interested in learning the game as well - I have signed up for the Phoenix group and hopefully we can find out of something some time in the autumn.
 
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Ferry Van der schans
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Different opinions on RS and how to start learning the game. Confusing but I get there are different ways to dive into this game.

Isn't there a small tutorial scenario which Lets you learn the game step by step like Legends of Andor? Just setup a small portion of the map, ask the player to move, hide, trade something, Other basic actions. Then setup a small combat with pre-setup character and monster?

That would help getting the basics under the belt, I think.
 
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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M4stermage wrote:
Isn't there a small tutorial scenario which Lets you learn the game step by step like Legends of Andor? Just setup a small portion of the map, ask the player to move, hide, trade something, Other basic actions. Then setup a small combat with pre-setup character and monster?
The Book of Learning does this basically.
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Chris Laudermilk
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anijunk wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
Particularly the combat where RS logs every step of a round and shows you in very clear steps how it got to the result. I found that part a huge help in wrapping my head around how combat works.

And here I have to disagree with you on this.

RS leads you through the different stages in the Encounter and Melee phases of an Encounter. But:
- at every stage you have to check a lot of data (weapons, spells, available chits), which are covered under many tabs
- when you are at the next stage and remembered you have forgotten something, you cannot step back.
- When the final stage (Combat result) is shown, you can check how the battle evolved (why were you killed or did get wounds) the explanation is very basic and not informative, even for an experienced player (and I am not an experienced player, at all).

You can point to a Harm Effect Table, as some fans has put in the file section.

I think more important in understanding Combat in MR is the Hit & Miss Table. This table is not in any version of the rule books, but published (by Richard Hamblen) in The General vol. 16 no. 4. (Perhaps my interpretation of that table gives an oversimplified impression of how Combat really works).

Actually, my advice is to read on and learn the Combat rules in the later stages of learning.

Well, we will agree to disagree then.

The logs were a bit opaque at first, but I found going over them to be helpful in pointing me in the right direction as to why I died. It could be that I'm used to poring over server logs to extract why the hateful thing blew up... robot

Basically using any of the resources now available is helpful: RealmSpeak, Jay's Book of Learning, the Bookshelf Games videos, the podcast. I used them all and they all helped.

Link to the podcast: http://howtoplaypodcast.com/episodes/episodes-11-20/episode-...

The first episode of the videos:
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Greg
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I also recommend: Shadows of Malice if you are interested in this one.
 
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Greg
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tmgergo wrote:
M4stermage wrote:
Isn't there a small tutorial scenario which Lets you learn the game step by step like Legends of Andor? Just setup a small portion of the map, ask the player to move, hide, trade something, Other basic actions. Then setup a small combat with pre-setup character and monster?
The Book of Learning does this basically.


Hold on a second.... this book is 282 pages long? LoL... that's incredible. I have no clue how the game could be that complex but I am wow-ed by that tutorial.
 
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