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Subject: How Angela Merkel imperiled Europe's future rss

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Steven Woodcock
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Interesting article:


http://theweek.com/articles/640943/how-angela-merkel-imperil...


Ferret
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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No just more of the same tosh about how in some way not judging everyone by the actions of a few is lefty pandering.

Is the same old crap.
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Adrian Hague
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Ferretman wrote:

So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?
 
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Pontifex Maximus
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slatersteven wrote:
No just more of the same tosh about how in some way not judging everyone by the actions of a few is lefty pandering.

Is the same old crap.


Yep. The second sentence is a dead giveaway

"Her refugee policy puts all of Europe at risk, though continental elites may be too zealous in their devotion to humanitarian ideals to recognize it."

The "interesting" part seems to be the attempt by the author to demonize "humanitarian ideals"
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J.D. Hall
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Ferretman wrote:

So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?

Easy. Strafe the rickety old boats used by the EEEE-VVULLLL Muslims while they're still far enough out to sea that there is no way they can swim to shore. Jeez, do I have to do all the thinking around here?
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jeremy cobert
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AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.
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J.D. Hall
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jeremycobert wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.

Isn't that where they're coming from in the first place?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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jeremycobert wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.
If they refuse to take them?
 
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Damian
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jeremycobert wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.

The top three refugee receiving countries are Pakistan, Turkey, and Lebanon which are just as compatible culturally.
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Damian
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remorseless1 wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.

Isn't that where they're coming from in the first place?

No. Refugees are currently coming primarily from, in order: Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia, and South Sudan.
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Andy Leighton
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remorseless1 wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?


Send them to OPEC nations that have room for them and more in common with them culturally.

Isn't that where they're coming from in the first place?


Not most of them.

OPEC is Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Qatar, Indonesia, Libya, UAE, Algeria, Nigeria, Ecuador, Gabon and Angola.

Syria, or at least the most populous areas, isn't really that close culturally speaking to any of those countries. It is far closer culturally to Lebanon. The only neighbour country in OPEC is Iraq and the situation isn't any better there.


 
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Jeff Staff
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Ferretman wrote:


Set up a giant camp ground in Essex!
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Diabolik771 wrote:
Ferretman wrote:


Set up a giant camp ground in Essex!
They would have to fight the travelers.
 
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Ferretman wrote:

So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?

This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

Merkel showed EU citizens that the organization can't handle a crisis.

Not because she was decisive - that wasn't necessarily an issue. It was the complete failure to figure out a sensible way to handle an obviously difficult problem, and to follow the plan.

Now every EU citizen knows that border controls are just "window-dressing".

It matters because immigration is a major political issue.

A minority that really really wants to open the borders of the EU doesn't have the right to impose their views on the majority. By achieving a similar result though poor execution, the political effects are the worst imaginable - an EU-wide right-wing backlash, and a distinct (though probably recoverable) weakening of the democratic process in EU countries due to the increased "political polarization."
And you have to wonder if 2.5% or so might have voted the other way in the Brexit vote if they thought they could trust the EU to manage its borders.

The EU elite couldn't have produced such a bad outcome if they'd deliberately tried to.
 
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Vapix wrote:
This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation


Do you still think that EU law was broken here?
 
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
Vapix wrote:
This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation


Do you still think that EU law was broken here?

I know you make sense sometimes, but this isn't one of those times, nor even one of those topics. I have no interest in any further interactions with you on this topic or anything close to it.
 
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Vapix wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
Vapix wrote:
This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation


Do you still think that EU law was broken here?

I know you make sense sometimes, but this isn't one of those times, nor even one of those topics. I have no interest in any further interactions with you on this topic or anything close to it.


It's a simple fact. The Dublin regulation can be suspended (for that state) if a member state so chooses. In the sense that they can accept more immigrants for processing (not the other parts of the regulation).

Though I certainly agree there's not much point discussing it if we can't agree on easy to look up simple legal facts.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
It's a simple fact. The Dublin regulation can be suspended (for that state) if a member state so chooses. In the sense that they can accept more immigrants for processing (not the other parts of the regulation).

Though I certainly agree there's not much point discussing it if we can't agree on easy to look up simple legal facts.

Germany certainly didn't break the regulation by invoking article 17 and taking more refugees, but I think Hungary did break it by not receiving refugees initially registered in Hungary.
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Vapix wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
Ferretman wrote:

So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?

This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

Merkel showed EU citizens that the organization can't handle a crisis.

Not because she was decisive - that wasn't necessarily an issue. It was the complete failure to figure out a sensible way to handle an obviously difficult problem, and to follow the plan.

Now every EU citizen knows that border controls are just "window-dressing".

It matters because immigration is a major political issue.

A minority that really really wants to open the borders of the EU doesn't have the right to impose their views on the majority. By achieving a similar result though poor execution, the political effects are the worst imaginable - an EU-wide right-wing backlash, and a distinct (though probably recoverable) weakening of the democratic process in EU countries due to the increased "political polarization."
And you have to wonder if 2.5% or so might have voted the other way in the Brexit vote if they though they could trust the EU to manage its borders.

The EU elite couldn't have produced such a bad outcome if they'd deliberately tried to.


While I don't agree with you, other than the apocalyptic drivel of the OP, this is at least worth discussion. The 'process' by which refugees were and are distributed over Europe is a mess. That doesn't make it wrong that we took them in in the first place, but more thought should have been put into it.
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
Vapix wrote:
Dolphinandrew wrote:
Vapix wrote:
This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation


Do you still think that EU law was broken here?

I know you make sense sometimes, but this isn't one of those times, nor even one of those topics. I have no interest in any further interactions with you on this topic or anything close to it.


It's a simple fact. The Dublin regulation can be suspended (for that state) if a member state so chooses. In the sense that they can accept more immigrants for processing (not the other parts of the regulation).

Though I certainly agree there's not much point discussing it if we can't agree on easy to look up simple legal facts.

The sequence started here:
Quote:
So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?

With my post above as the response.

The reason I don't want to talk to you on this topic is because you are demonstrably incapable of paying attention to the discussion, which makes every post you make an irrelevant distraction because it diverges from the topic. This is "RSP legal" of course, but it's stupid. And you are definitely capable of doing better
 
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Vapix wrote:
The reason I don't want to talk to you on this topic is because you are demonstrably incapable of paying attention to the discussion, which makes every post you make an irrelevant distraction because it diverges from the topic. This is "RSP legal" of course, but it's stupid. And you are definitely capable of doing better


If you don't want to discuss the Dublin Regulation don't bring it up. And if you do want to discuss the Dublin regulation don't make up things about it like the EU not paying any attention to it. The topic is not helped by making points based on simply incorrect facts.



I think the Dublin regulation is part of the problem, in that it (without an inner country choosing to invoke their ability to suspend it for themselves) passes on all the responsibility and costs of processing immigrants to the outer countries of the EU who are least economically and organisationally able to cope.

However:

1) The ability to suspend the Dublin regulation, like Germany has done, to bear some of the costs of the processing is perhaps one of the more sensible things to have happened during the crisis.

2) The pushing of this cost onto the outer countries has generally lead them to dealing much more harshly and unfairly with immigrants and particularly refugees. Border controls are not just 'window dressing'. Quite the opposite. They have been in practice wildly inconsistent, but almost always far too harsh than the opposite.

3) While EU regulations such as Dublin are not helping problem, it's a fairly small issue compared to:

a) The huge and relatively sudden increase in refugees coming into an underfunded system (or an underfunded part of the system).

b)The knee-jerk response of the right-wing anti-immigration lot to treat all refugees like scum.

c) The complete unwillingness of many of the inner countries to make sensible steps like Germany has done towards sharing some of the burden for processes a lot of people.

Regulations like Dublin basically stop certain countries having to help with the problem, but they don't stop them doing so if they want to, nor did they cause the problem.
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oldsin wrote:
Vapix wrote:
AdrianPHague wrote:
Ferretman wrote:

So in your opinion what should the EU do with refugees (i.e. those people displaced by wars, as opposed to 'economic migrants') ?

This is what the EU had agreed to before it decided to pay no attention to its own regulations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

Merkel showed EU citizens that the organization can't handle a crisis.

Not because she was decisive - that wasn't necessarily an issue. It was the complete failure to figure out a sensible way to handle an obviously difficult problem, and to follow the plan.

Now every EU citizen knows that border controls are just "window-dressing".

It matters because immigration is a major political issue.

A minority that really really wants to open the borders of the EU doesn't have the right to impose their views on the majority. By achieving a similar result though poor execution, the political effects are the worst imaginable - an EU-wide right-wing backlash, and a distinct (though probably recoverable) weakening of the democratic process in EU countries due to the increased "political polarization."
And you have to wonder if 2.5% or so might have voted the other way in the Brexit vote if they though they could trust the EU to manage its borders.

The EU elite couldn't have produced such a bad outcome if they'd deliberately tried to.


While I don't agree with you, other than the apocalyptic drivel of the OP, this is at least worth discussion. The 'process' by which refugees were and are distributed over Europe is a mess. That doesn't make it wrong that we took them in in the first place, but more thought should have been put into it.

If you don't think the "EU Refugee Crisis" was handled well, what is there in my post that you don't agree with?

Note that this is a real question, not a trick. I'm aware that a good proportion of posters here can't read a post with the word "immigration" in it without deciding the poster is a right-wing lunatic, but you're a representative of the saner side of RSP

There's nothing pro- or anti- immigration in any of my posts. Of course I have opinions, but this is RSP - it's an entertaining forum, but it's no place for a discussion about difficult political issues.

The "bullet points" version of my post is:

* Immigration is an important political issue to enough EU citizens that it always needs to be handled well
* The practical aspects of "the crisis" were handled badly, and very visibly, so political consequences were inevitable
* The negative political result is already visible

You might disagree that they could not have done a worse job if they tried, but given the obvious practical constraints, I'm not so sure.

The sequence was: ignore an obvious problem until it becomes acute; deny it until it becomes a genuine crisis; set aside the standard process because of the crisis; take no emergency action to address the officially declared crisis situation; ...

.. and then replace the usual selection process with a strenuous physical trial: an "endurance trek" of sorts, which makes it relatively likely that many people with genuine issues are unable to gain entry because they're not hardy enough, or have weaker dependents.

IMO it would take a whole team of Eurocrats years of analysis and debate to come up with such a stupid approach.
 
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