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Subject: Yours vs Any action? rss

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Simon Maynard
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The Puppet cards says: "Before your TAILOR action, you may return this to trade your hand with an opponent. Place their hand in your waiting area."

The Flute card says: "For a MONK or POTTER action, you may hire or collect an opponent's PAPER work or task instead of a card from the floor."

Is that an important distinction? Perhaps the Puppet work can only be used when you play the task (and not acting on someone else's task)? As opposed to the Flute card being able to be used for anyone's task?
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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Several cards have that distinction, and I have assumed it is precise and important. That probably comes from my experience with Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Rise of the Runelords – Base Set, where the distinction was a core mechanism.

EDIT: Now that the full text is in the OP, I'm not sure that distinction isn't the one I was thinking of. I think I remember a different case, so I'll go look at the list and post a different reply.
 
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Trevor Taylor
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I suspect if you show the full text of each card, the distinction will be clearer (it's also good form to show complete card text when asking about cards).
 
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Simon Maynard
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negatrev wrote:
I suspect if you show the full text of each card, the distinction will be clearer (it's also good form to show complete card text when asking about cards).

I've updated the first post with the full card descriptions but I don't think it helps.
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Tucker Taylor
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Fried Egg wrote:
The Puppet cards says: "Before your TAILOR action, you may return this to trade your hand with an opponent. Place their hand in your waiting area."

That's specifically YOUR action, as you noted. It happens before your action, not before ANY action.

Quote:
The Flute card says: "For a MONK or POTTER action, you may hire or collect an opponent's PAPER work or task instead of a card from the floor."

That's in place of YOUR action. It replaces the action (see "instead"), so there's no need to specify YOUR (since you can't replace actions that other people take).
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Kevin B. Smith
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JazzFish wrote:
That's specifically YOUR action, as you noted. It happens before your action, not before ANY action.
...
That's in place of YOUR action. It replaces the action (see "instead"), so there's no need to specify YOUR (since you can't replace actions that other people take).

It wasn't clear to me from your response whether you are arguing that the wording is important or not.

Here are all the cards that refer to "your" action or task:

Two refer to opponents using YOUR task, so those seem pretty clear:
Quote:
Opponents skip your TAILOR or SMITH tasks unless they reveal a matching card from their hand.
Quote:
Opponents skip your CLERK, MONK, or POTTER tasks unless they reveal a matching card from their hand.


One refers to your task, which again seems clear that it's the card in front of you:
Quote:
Before using your task, you may reveal a matching card in hand to gain one action of that task.


Three refer to your TAILOR action (not task):
Quote:
Before your TAILOR action, you may reveal the top three cards of the deck. If you do, return two of them and put the third back on top of it.
Quote:
Before your TAILOR action, you may return this to trade your hand with an opponent. Place their hand in your waiting area.
Quote:
Before your TAILOR action, you may reveal the top card of the deck. If its value is equal to the number of cards in your hand, complete it for free.


Two refer to your PRAYER action:
Quote:
After your PRAYER action, you may draw three cards to your waiting area. If you do, place this there too.
Quote:
After your PRAYER action, you may return this. If you do, end the game.


It seems like "your action" refers to any action you take, regardless of whether it was triggered by your task, or your opponent's task.
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Tucker Taylor
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peakhope wrote:
It wasn't clear to me from your response whether you are arguing that the wording is important or not.

I was arguing that it's important in a "Before (your|a) XXX action" but not an "Instead of (your|a) XXX action," since "Instead" is always and inherently "your" action.

Although I don't know if there are any "Before any XXX action" cards. It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't any, in which case cards take effect on your actions only, and "Before your XXX action" is only for emphasis.
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Darin Bolyard
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I'm with JazzFish on this.

Besides, assume for a moment that the text on the Flute card is intended to mean "on anyone's turn." This creates far more problems under the current wording.

Keep it simple...
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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JazzFish wrote:
peakhope wrote:
It wasn't clear to me from your response whether you are arguing that the wording is important or not.

I was arguing that it's important in a "Before (your|a) XXX action" but not an "Instead of (your|a) XXX action," since "Instead" is always and inherently "your" action.

Although I don't know if there are any "Before any XXX action" cards. It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't any, in which case cards take effect on your actions only, and "Before your XXX action" is only for emphasis.

Sorry, but it's still not clear. I think you (and Darin) might be answering a question that isn't being asked.

To answer your question: Yes, there are "Before a/any XXX", such as "Before a CLERK task, you may reveal MONK cards from hand. Each one counts as a CLERK helper during the task." (Note that this brings up a different subtle wording issue, which I'll get back to.)

Given that there are both "Before your XXX" and "Before any XXX", are you arguing that the former only apply to tasks you played, and not when you are performing actions off your opponent's task?

Let me try again from the start. From a player's perspective, there are 4 kinds of actions:

1. Actions I am doing based on my opponent's task card
2. Actions I am doing based on my own task card
3. Actions my opponent is doing based on their task card
4. Actions my opponent is doing based on my task card

My interpretation of the original question was that it was NOT asking about #3 or #4. Instead, it was asking whether the "a/your" wording was intended to distinguish between #1 and #2. Is #1 still considered "your" action? My current interpretation is that both #1 and #2 are "your" action, although I admit that my position has been unstable during this conversation.


(Back to that subtle wording I mentioned earlier)
Some cards refer to tasks, while others refer to actions. My interpretation is that a "Clerk task" might be used to perform a "Clerk action" or a "Prayer action" or a "Craft action".

Thus, in the example above ("Before a CLERK task, you may reveal MONK cards from hand. Each one counts as a CLERK helper during the task"), the effect would grant multiple actions, each of which could be used to perform a clerk, craft, or prayer action.
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Darin Bolyard
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If this↑ is the case, then I'd say to the OP that anything you do on your turn is going to result in your action.

When I use my opponent's task, whatever I do with that task is mine--my action. If he/she has a MONK or POTTER task in front of them, then I can activate the Flute if I use that task to perform a POTTER or MONK action.
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Tucker Taylor
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peakhope wrote:
Given that there are both "Before your XXX" and "Before any XXX", are you arguing that the former only apply to tasks you played, and not when you are performing actions off your opponent's task?

Ah, understood! And, I am not arguing that, and I'm sorry for the confusion that made it look like I was.

Looking back at it now, I understand better where the OP's confusion came from. I still think that Puppet's "Before your Tailor action" and Flute's "For a Monk/Potter action" apply to actions that you take, regardless of whether they trigger off of your task or someone else's.
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Simon Maynard
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Great, thanks guys. It seems that the consensus has come down in favour of how I had already been playing it. I just happened to notice the wording difference on those two cards (played in a recent game I had) and wondered if I should have been making a distinction. It seems not.
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Gillum the Stoor
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All the relevant works provide benefits only to actions taken by the player owning the work (forgetting Kite for now) - in that player's turn, but regardless of what player's task generates the actions.

For those that augment actions other than Tailor and Prayer, the language typically refers to some element of the action that the player performs, which serves to indicate that the benefit applies only to that player's actions.

The works that augment Tailor and Prayer actions typically provide benefits entirely before or entirely after the action, without referring to what was done in the action. For that reason, the word "your" was added to the text, to emphasize that the owning player does not gain the work's benefit before or after another player's action.

Note that the works benefiting a Tailor action (Fan, Puppet, Dice) do so only if a true Tailor action is performed (return cards, then draw up to 5). They cannot be used if the Tailor action is converted to Prayer or to Craft with Cloth.
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Simon Maynard
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gillum wrote:
Note that the works benefiting a Tailor action (Fan, Puppet, Dice) do so only if a true Tailor action is performed (return cards, then draw up to 5). They cannot be used if the Tailor action is converted to Prayer or to Craft with Cloth.

With respect to the Puppet, it seems to actually replace the action entirely, not merely to occur before it. Because if you give your entire hand to an opponent and receive their hand into your waiting area, you are not in a position to return and draw cards (although I suppose you could draw up to five if your opponents hand contained less than five). You could conceivably convert the action to a prayer and then draw a card even if your opponent's hand contained five (or more) cards. I don't know why you say the tailor action can't be converted to a prayer or craft with cloth. Obviously you wouldn't be able to craft because you wouldn't have any cards in your hand to craft with but why not prayer?
 
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Trevor Taylor
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Fried Egg wrote:
gillum wrote:
Note that the works benefiting a Tailor action (Fan, Puppet, Dice) do so only if a true Tailor action is performed (return cards, then draw up to 5). They cannot be used if the Tailor action is converted to Prayer or to Craft with Cloth.

With respect to the Puppet, it seems to actually replace the action entirely, not merely to occur before it. Because if you give your entire hand to an opponent and receive their hand into your waiting area, you are not in a position to return and draw cards (although I suppose you could draw up to five if your opponents hand contained less than five). You could conceivably convert the action to a prayer and then draw a card even if your opponent's hand contained five (or more) cards. I don't know why you say the tailor action can't be converted to a prayer or craft with cloth. Obviously you wouldn't be able to craft because you wouldn't have any cards in your hand to craft with but why not prayer?


Because if you Pray, you're not taking a Tailor action. A Tailor TASK allows you to choose to take a Tailor action, craft action or prayer action.
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Fried Egg wrote:
gillum wrote:
Note that the works benefiting a Tailor action (Fan, Puppet, Dice) do so only if a true Tailor action is performed (return cards, then draw up to 5). They cannot be used if the Tailor action is converted to Prayer or to Craft with Cloth.

With respect to the Puppet, it seems to actually replace the action entirely, not merely to occur before it. Because if you give your entire hand to an opponent and receive their hand into your waiting area, you are not in a position to return and draw cards (although I suppose you could draw up to five if your opponents hand contained less than five). You could conceivably convert the action to a prayer and then draw a card even if your opponent's hand contained five (or more) cards. I don't know why you say the tailor action can't be converted to a prayer or craft with cloth. Obviously you wouldn't be able to craft because you wouldn't have any cards in your hand to craft with but why not prayer?

It is true that, if you use Puppet (returning it), your Tailor action will not allow you to return any cards (because your hand will be empty) or, if your opponent had 5 or more cards, to draw any cards.

But you still get a Tailor action and, if your opponent had fewer than 5 cards, you must draw cards to your waiting area to increase the number there to 5.

If you have a Tailor action and use Puppet (or Fan or Dice), you cannot then convert that Tailor action to Prayer. It's not allowed. The designer confirmed that here. (His statement was for Dice and Puppet, but there is no reason to believe that it does not also apply to Fan.)
 
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negatrev wrote:
Because if you Pray, you're not taking a Tailor action. A Tailor TASK allows you to choose to take a Tailor action, craft action or prayer action.

Officially, the rules say that "Any action can be replaced by a Craft or Prayer action."

The point here is that, if you use Dice, Fan, or Puppet for a Tailor action, you cannot do this replacement.

It is possible to get a Tailor action other than from a Tailor task.

Pin allows you a Tailor action in the morning regardless of any Tailor task.

This Tailor action can be replaced with Craft or Prayer just like any other Tailor action. And, like any other Tailor action, you can use Dice, Fan, or Puppet only if you don't convert.
 
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Trevor Taylor
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gillum wrote:
negatrev wrote:
Because if you Pray, you're not taking a Tailor action. A Tailor TASK allows you to choose to take a Tailor action, craft action or prayer action.

Officially, the rules say that "Any action can be replaced by a Craft or Prayer action."

The point here is that, if you use Dice, Fan, or Puppet for a Tailor action, you cannot do this replacement.

It is possible to get a Tailor action other than from a Tailor task.

Pin allows you a Tailor action in the morning regardless of any Tailor task.

This Tailor action can be replaced with Craft or Prayer just like any other Tailor action. And, like any other Tailor action, you can use Dice, Fan, or Puppet only if you don't convert.


Well that's a new one on me

It certainly will confuse things when explaining the game to others as well (this means this apart from these 3 cards). I think I'll stick with the task gives you actions (type, craft or pray), but once you have an action, it is what it is. As otherwise, you need to single out these 3 cards every learning game before shuffling.
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I agree that this fact about these three cards complicates things.

There is a section on them on page 21 of the rules, but it doesn't call out the fact that the works can be used only for true Tailor actions.

This distinction led me to the fact (confirmed by the designer) that there are three different concepts in this game: tasks, actions, and "action choices."

Tasks (and Pin) generate action choices, and a player may convert each of these to an action, which may be (1) identical to the action choice (e.g., a Tailor action); (2) prayer; or (3) craft.

I agree that this complicates teaching the game.
 
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