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Subject: Arab "Noam Chomskys" rss

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Isaac Citrom
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I was just clicking about YouTube and came across these two men whose statements wow-ed me. I suppose one could say from their perspective they'd be considered like Noam Chomsky in pan-Arab society.

I've had plenty of close, friendly and sympathetic interactions with both Christian and Muslim Arabs, Western educated, but I'm frankly astounded hearing this talk from a Saudi and an Iraqi. They pull no punches.

I collected a bunch of their videos here for your convenience but I think they're all originally sourced from MEMRI.



Ibrahim Al-Buleihi. A Saudi political thinker.

A non-YouTube video at the Daily Motion

A non-YouTube video at MEMRI










Iyad Jamal Al-Din. A Shia Iraqi cleric and politician.




.
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Daniel
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By Noam Chomskys you mean they are contrarian to their mainstream points of view of their societies-- not anti-military industrial complex and anti-imperialism?
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Daniel
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The guy in the last video sounds like a natural rights classical liberal libertarian.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyad_Jamal_Al-Din

Yep. Separation of state and religion. Interesting.
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Mac Mcleod
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Excellent post.

I really didn't expect him to say of course he supports bars. He lacked the mealy mouthed equivocation of many western politicians.


And the use of 'depraved singer' was odd.
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Isaac Citrom
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maxo-texas wrote:
Excellent post.

I really didn't expect him to say of course he supports bars. He lacked the mealy mouthed equivocation of many western politicians.


And the use of 'depraved singer' was odd.


I'm guessing 'depraved singer' is a euphemism for a prostitute.
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maxo-texas wrote:
Excellent post.

I really didn't expect him to say of course he supports bars. He lacked the mealy mouthed equivocation of many western politicians.


And the use of 'depraved singer' was odd.

I interpreted "depraved" as sinful (although the word was used later in the translation) or unenlightened. Maybe someone can figure out the Biblical reference?

In the first video, I liked:

"Civilizations are measured by their ability to change."
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Robert Stuart
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Impressive!
 
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Moshe Callen
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Isaac;

I realize your intent but IMO calling someone a Noam Chomsky is never a compliment.

That aside, excellent find!
 
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Steve Fitt
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maxo-texas wrote:
Excellent post.

I really didn't expect him to say of course he supports bars. He lacked the mealy mouthed equivocation of many western politicians.


And the use of 'depraved singer' was odd.

I find it excellent also.

Of course it's because it confirms my previous opinions.

As I watched the last video I was thinking that the 2 main speakers are likely to be killed for saying such things. And then the interviewer asked him (the last speaker) if he knew who it was who had tried to kill him 3 or 4 times.

A big problem with Arab culture is exactly that. If "they" disagree with what you say they are likely to end the debate by simply killing you.

Europe has let over a million such people into their nations. Even if it is just 10% that kill that is still 100,000 now in Europe. [OK, yes only men do this and only 42% of the million are military age men, so that reduces the number to just 42,000, more or less.]

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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Steve1501 wrote:
Europe has let over a million such people into their nations. Even if it is just 10% that kill that is still 100,000 now in Europe. [OK, yes only men do this and only 42% of the million are military age men, so that reduces the number to just 42,000, more or less.]
Wouldn't you think that 42,000 roaming murderers might make the news, as opposed to what is actually happening? It seems to me it isn't even 1%, maybe even not .1%.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Steve1501 wrote:
A big problem with Arab culture is exactly that. If "they" disagree with what you say they are likely to end the debate by simply killing you.
And our culture produces people like Trump who calls for his opponents to be killed.
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Daniel
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TheChin! wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
A big problem with Arab culture is exactly that. If "they" disagree with what you say they are likely to end the debate by simply killing you.
And our culture produces people like Trump who calls for his opponents to be killed.


To be fair, both candidates would end up killing many people due to taking up the office. Hillary has already killed people by fomenting coups and arming ISIS etc. What is worse?
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Steve Fitt
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dandechino wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
A big problem with Arab culture is exactly that. If "they" disagree with what you say they are likely to end the debate by simply killing you.
And our culture produces people like Trump who calls for his opponents to be killed.


To be fair, both candidates would end up killing many people due to taking up the office. Hillary has already killed people by fomenting coups and arming ISIS etc. What is worse?

In their official capacity as President in war or un-declared war, yes. Can you see how that is different? Or following the orders of the President as Hilary may have. I'm not going to just accept you view that she ordered people killed as Sec. of State.

Why aren't you pointing at US soldiers and marines as killers also?

Oh yeah, war is different, right.

Arab culture gives this right or in some cases duty to every man. This is not workable in a civilized society.

 
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Daniel
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I don't think war is anything other than murder on a massive scale. Different rules do not apply to States or individuals who work for the State than the rules that apply to individuals outside the State. Stealing from everyone in a territory to fund a war machine is theft on a massive scale. God's moral law applies to each individual.

Neocons who say stuff like ""Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business" and as a result launch wars that kill and displace millions of people are guilty of murder and destroying lives.

US soldiers and marines that don't question their orders when they are told to kill and harm people who have done nothing to harm or threaten Americans are also guilty of shedding innocent blood.

It's not really that complicated. You don't have to be an absolute pacifist to reach these conclusions.
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Moshe Callen
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dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.
 
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dandechino wrote:
US soldiers and marines that don't question their orders when they are told to kill and harm people who have done nothing to harm or threaten Americans are also guilty of shedding innocent blood.
Some soldiers who do feel their orders are wrong do get out of the service or turn CO. The thing is that, by definition, they are supposed to trust what the chain of command tells them and if the CoC says that a target is instrumental, even if indirect, in protecting American lives then they are going to trust those orders. If a target is unlawful, the soldiers have to know it before you can blame them for destroying it anyway. Otherwise, they believe they are doing their patriotic duty and actually making a sacrifice for the greater good. A noble goal whether justified or misguided.

Yes, destroying a village of civilians should set off warning bells in any soldiers head. Attacking a compound to neutralize insurgents only to find civilians is a different story.
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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TheChin! wrote:
And our culture produces people like Trump who calls for his opponents to be killed.


Trump calls for it, but Hillary ACTUALLY DOES IT!

Vote for the successful killer!
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Daniel
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whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Obviously "war is murder" is a bit oversimplified. I think I am trying to make the same point as Voltaire but I am sure not as well.

“It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.”

It is obviously not murder to take another life in self-defense as last resort. Very rarely does the State and its agents take a life in pure self-defense as a last resort. They do come up with all sorts of terms to make it sound nice when they drone bomb a wedding party of hundreds of people though such as "collateral damage"

God owns creation. God judges His creatures. God can command my death today and use means to do so and be just because I am a sinner. When God's covenant people were commanded to cleanse the land in the administration of the Old Covenant- in other words, when God related to his Covenant people as an administration of a geopolitical nation with a king under God, he was perfectly just to command them put others to the sword and purge the land. There are all sorts of things God can do and remain just than I can not. I can't judge the nations.
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dandechino wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Obviously "war is murder" is a bit oversimplified. I think I am trying to make the same point as Voltaire but I am sure not as well.

“It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.”

It is obviously not murder to take another life in self-defense as last resort. Very rarely does the State and its agents take a life in pure self-defense as a last resort. They do come up with all sorts of terms to make it sound nice when they drone bomb a wedding party of hundreds of people though such as "collateral damage"

God owns creation. God judges His creatures. God can command my death today and use means to do so and be just because I am a sinner. When God's covenant people were commanded to cleanse the land in the administration of the Old Covenant- in other words, when God related to his Covenant people as an administration of a geopolitical nation with a king under God, he was perfectly just to command them put others to the sword and purge the land. There are all sorts of things God can do and remain just than I can not. I can't judge the nations.

except G-d follows His own laws.
 
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Daniel
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TheChin! wrote:
dandechino wrote:
US soldiers and marines that don't question their orders when they are told to kill and harm people who have done nothing to harm or threaten Americans are also guilty of shedding innocent blood.
Some soldiers who do feel their orders are wrong do get out of the service or turn CO. The thing is that, by definition, they are supposed to trust what the chain of command tells them and if the CoC says that a target is instrumental, even if indirect, in protecting American lives then they are going to trust those orders. If a target is unlawful, the soldiers have to know it before you can blame them for destroying it anyway. Otherwise, they believe they are doing their patriotic duty and actually making a sacrifice for the greater good. A noble goal whether justified or misguided.

Yes, destroying a village of civilians should set off warning bells in any soldiers head. Attacking a compound to neutralize insurgents only to find civilians is a different story.


Unfortunately, when you sign on the dotted line, it's not so easy to have a conscience and get out. "You signed up for this." It's one of the few occupations that you can't just turn in a two weeks notice or quit one day. When you stop pulling the triggers, you start getting the cages and called traitorous. Maybe people should think ahead before they join and maybe they are responsible for not thinking ahead of the people they will be asked to kill? Especially in an era of never ending "wars" that are undeclared and objective-less. At this point, it is just joining to maintain hegemony and global imperial ambitions. Even the Navy recruiting posters say as much: THE US NAVY: A GLOBAL FORCE FOR GOOD. Nothing in that about only taking lives in defense.
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Daniel
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whac3 wrote:
dandechino wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Obviously "war is murder" is a bit oversimplified. I think I am trying to make the same point as Voltaire but I am sure not as well.

“It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.”

It is obviously not murder to take another life in self-defense as last resort. Very rarely does the State and its agents take a life in pure self-defense as a last resort. They do come up with all sorts of terms to make it sound nice when they drone bomb a wedding party of hundreds of people though such as "collateral damage"

God owns creation. God judges His creatures. God can command my death today and use means to do so and be just because I am a sinner. When God's covenant people were commanded to cleanse the land in the administration of the Old Covenant- in other words, when God related to his Covenant people as an administration of a geopolitical nation with a king under God, he was perfectly just to command them put others to the sword and purge the land. There are all sorts of things God can do and remain just than I can not. I can't judge the nations.

except G-d follows His own laws.


...right. He is consistent within his nature and His holiness and mercy. Christians believe that He is just even in giving mercy to sinners who deserve judgement because the justice was satisfied at the cross. We were purchased and redeemed by the Son. I am saying if God goes to war it would be just because God is just. If God commanded me to take up the sword to enact such a war, it would be just. God isn't commanding any geopolitical nation nowadays to go to war against another nation.
 
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Steve Fitt
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TheChin! wrote:
Steve1501 wrote:
Europe has let over a million such people into their nations. Even if it is just 10% that kill that is still 100,000 now in Europe. [OK, yes only men do this and only 42% of the million are military age men, so that reduces the number to just 42,000, more or less.]
Wouldn't you think that 42,000 roaming murderers might make the news, as opposed to what is actually happening? It seems to me it isn't even 1%, maybe even not .1%.

You are aware that we do have polling data on these sorts of attitudes, right?

You do know that the polls support my number far better than yours?

Of course, polling in a Muslim nation on these sorts of topics is not very reliable because, a] polling is a Western introduction, and b] lying to unbelievers is OK or even required by the Koran.

And, of course, so far the actual numbers of refugees who have killed to defend Islam is below your lowest number.

So, which of us is closer to the truth? Time will tell.

 
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Mac Mcleod
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whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Ukase Rex.

Whatever your god says to do is good by definition. Even acts which would always otherwise be considered evil.
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Steve Fitt
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dandechino wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dandechino wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Obviously "war is murder" is a bit oversimplified. I think I am trying to make the same point as Voltaire but I am sure not as well.

“It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.”

It is obviously not murder to take another life in self-defense as last resort. Very rarely does the State and its agents take a life in pure self-defense as a last resort. They do come up with all sorts of terms to make it sound nice when they drone bomb a wedding party of hundreds of people though such as "collateral damage"

God owns creation. God judges His creatures. God can command my death today and use means to do so and be just because I am a sinner. When God's covenant people were commanded to cleanse the land in the administration of the Old Covenant- in other words, when God related to his Covenant people as an administration of a geopolitical nation with a king under God, he was perfectly just to command them put others to the sword and purge the land. There are all sorts of things God can do and remain just than I can not. I can't judge the nations.

except G-d follows His own laws.


...right. He is consistent within his nature and His holiness and mercy. Christians believe that He is just even in giving mercy to sinners who deserve judgement because the justice was satisfied at the cross. We were purchased and redeemed by the Son. I am saying if God goes to war it would be just because God is just. If God commanded me to take up the sword to enact such a war, it would be just. God isn't commanding any geopolitical nation nowadays to go to war against another nation.

OK, I understand. Your Christian beliefs lead you to believe that almost all killing of humans is "murder". Including in wartime.

So, is it your position that when the UK declared war on Hitler's Germany when it invaded Poland they were not acting in self-defense as a last resort? So, therefore, every British soldier who killed a German soldier in WWII was a murderer? Is this what you believe?

Does it matter at all to you that the US is not a Christian nation [by a treaty made by Pres. George Washington and ratified by the Senate, which according to the Constitution is equal to the Constitution]?

I'm not now a Christian. I don't feel that I am required to agree with you on this. It is traditional in Western civilization to allow nations to do things that individual humans are not allowed to do. Like collecting taxes, punishing people by holding them in cages, and declaring war. I'm just fine with this. The vast majority of US and European citizens agree with me. The UN Charter agrees with this.

Maybe in the future this will change. But, it will not be because extreme Christians like you forced everyone else to agree with them. It will be because times change and the opinions of the then living citizens are different from their dead ancestors' opinions.

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Steve Fitt
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maxo-texas wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dandechino;

If war is murder, according to you, a Christian, how did G-d command it in your OT? Are you saying your god is a murderer?

EDIT:
My point is that there is some validity to what you say except that you take it to extremes that are not justified.


Ukase Rex.

Whatever your god says to do is good by definition. Even acts which would always otherwise be considered evil.

Stephen,
If I may be so bold? My take on this is that a secular nation [like the US] can not elevate any particular God to the top. Without this, there is no way to decide which God's pronouncements are to be obeyed no matter how evil they would be if "God had not demanded that we do them". Also, since even Christians do not all agree on the extreme demands of God, there is no way to decide which set of demands of the Christian God should be obeyed.

In the US and now in all of Western Civilization there is a separation of church and state. We [citizens of that civilization] do not accept that God can tell us what to do as nations [as people maybe, but not as nations]. Well, unless He came in person and told us what to do directly. We do not believe any human being when he/she says that they speak for God. We believe that they are not right in that belief, are crazy, or are knowingly lying to us.

1 edit to be clearer and 1 for a typo.
 
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