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Subject: Defensive Fire on Infantry Units Moving Via Bypass Movement rss

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Gary Kessler
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In the image below, the Romanian officer is using bypass movement (through the hex with the BM counter on it). My interpretation is that the Russian squad is not able to fire on the moving Romanian leader in the bypass hex. If the Russian squad draws LOS to the hex center (yellow dot), that LOS does not cross the arrow on the BM counter. The Russian squad can not trace clear LOS to the hex juncture (red dot); LOS is blocked by the woods foliage.

Is my interpretation of this situation correct?


 
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Frank Clarke
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The rule seems to be:

4.6.9 106.52 (COD) Should the moving unit's bypass
counter arrow not be crossed by the LOS of a
defending unit, that defending unit may not fire
at the moving unit in that hex.
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T. Dauphin
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Yes, you're interpretation is completely correct.
For future reference, in case you're being strict about LOS checks, remember that you are allowed only one of those checks when attempting defensive fire. Though these examples are clear without an actual check.

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Scott B
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Quote:
...but the firer also has the option (although only one LOS check per fire group is allowed) to trace his LOS to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow. The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures. -- 106.51


I'll further the question by asking if the LOS may be traced to only the center juncture or to any one of the three junctures.

I could read 106.51 either way, one as center only and the other as one LOS check only. However, when i look at vehicle bypass movement (112.61), any of the junctures may be used to trace LOS to.

my non-rules 'common sense' says the leader is moving through open ground at Q5-Q4-R4 and it should be a 8 IFT -2 shot. Clearly he must cross R4-Q5 hexside in LOS of R5. Although I never follow common sense in this game.

EDIT: ASL allows tracing the LOS to any junction along the hex-side(s) traversed.
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Scott B
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juster2 wrote:
The rule seems to be:

4.6.9 106.52 (COD) Should the moving unit's bypass
counter arrow not be crossed by the LOS of a
defending unit, that defending unit may not fire
at the moving unit in that hex.


I think this is true only if you trace LOS to the hex center, it does not apply to the junction per the example on page 77. When tracing to the junction, it can be blocked by an obstacle in the bypass hex.
 
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craig grinnell
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"common sense" would tell me that the Russian could shoot the hapless Rumanian corporal as he moves from R4 to Q5 because there's open ground.

however, if I were playing this, I would say that he was one lucky Rumanian and not allow a shot on him. None of the "blind side" of hex Q5 is visible to the Russians since the woods image extends to the R4/Q5 hexside. (I think. hard to see in pics and I don't have the board handy)
 
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Gary Kessler
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sbramley1967 wrote:
Quote:
...but the firer also has the option (although only one LOS check per fire group is allowed) to trace his LOS to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow. The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures. -- 106.51


I'll further the question by asking if the LOS may be traced to only the center juncture or to any one of the three junctures.

I could read 106.51 either way, one as center only and the other as one LOS check only. However, when i look at vehicle bypass movement (112.61), any of the junctures may be used to trace LOS to.

my non-rules 'common sense' says the leader is moving through open ground at Q5-Q4-R4 and it should be a 8 IFT -2 shot. Clearly he must cross R4-Q5 hexside in LOS of R5. Although I never follow common sense in this game.


If the moving unit uses BM to traverse 2 consecutive hexsides, LOS may only be be traced to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow (or to the hex center, of course.) This is taken directly from the COD rule you quoted above. Hexside juncture means the point where the two hexside lines meet, correct? Note also that the rule quoted above says juncture, not junctures. Only one juncture.

The BM counter has three orange dots on it, correct? If the BM counter is correctly placed in the hex, the middle dot is at the juncture of the two hexsides being traversed by the moving unit. This is the hexside juncture to which a defensive firing unit may attempt to draw clear LOS to.

If the bypassing unit unit is only traversing one hexside, you flip the BM counter over (if you are playing the game via Vassal). This side of the BM counter has only 2 orange dots. You position the BM counter, in this case, so that the two orange dots are on either side of the hexside being traversed. Defending units may attempt to draw unobstructed LOS to either of these two junctures, as marked by the orange dots on the BM counter. This is COD rule 106.53.

 
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Gary Kessler
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sbramley1967 wrote:
juster2 wrote:
The rule seems to be:

4.6.9 106.52 (COD) Should the moving unit's bypass
counter arrow not be crossed by the LOS of a
defending unit, that defending unit may not fire
at the moving unit in that hex.


I think this is true only if you trace LOS to the hex center, it does not apply to the junction per the example on page 77. When tracing to the junction, it can be blocked by an obstacle in the bypass hex.


Correct. In fact, it is not possible to trace LOS to the juncture without crossing the BM counter arrow. The arrow is considered to be part of the entire length of the 2 hexsides, much like stone walls and hedges are considered to run the entire length of a hexside (whether the artwork shows that or not).
 
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T. Dauphin
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Thanks for asking that question, Scott. I've been believing that only the one juncture (in the middle of the arrow) is checked, as per the rule Scott quoted, and according to the section I've bolded.

Quote:
...but the firer also has the option (although only one LOS check per fire group is allowed) to trace his LOS to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow. The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures. -- 106.51


However, the example on pg 77, shows (in red) unit A, bypassing hex W1 and moving into V1. (Sorry, I was trying to get a picture included, but the Select button is missing from the uploads and I can't get it done.) The example allows DF at two points along that path, one of which is the mid arrow juncture, but also at the next juncture which is located at the end of the arrow. This suggests that any of the three hex junctures are considered for LOS.
The rule does, in fact, say, "inclusive of junctures". Plural. This also bothered me when it seemed they only wanted the one juncture to be used.
So it looks like common sense does interpret the rule correctly and it remains consistent with vehicular bypass.

So, once again, I am changing my vote. It appears as though the Rumanian officer would be in serious trouble here, after all.

edit: Gary, I see you posted while I was composing. The rule book does define the arrow as including all junctures (plural) as I mentioned above. The writing of this rule is unclear, but the red example on pg 77 does show fire at an "end-point" of the arrow, so I think we should consider that all three points are included.


 
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Gary Kessler
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sbramley1967 wrote:
Quote:
...but the firer also has the option (although only one LOS check per fire group is allowed) to trace his LOS to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow. The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures. -- 106.51


I'll further the question by asking if the LOS may be traced to only the center juncture or to any one of the three junctures.

I could read 106.51 either way, one as center only and the other as one LOS check only. However, when i look at vehicle bypass movement (112.61), any of the junctures may be used to trace LOS to.

my non-rules 'common sense' says the leader is moving through open ground at Q5-Q4-R4 and it should be a 8 IFT -2 shot. Clearly he must cross R4-Q5 hexside in LOS of R5. Although I never follow common sense in this game.

EDIT: ASL allows tracing the LOS to any junction along the hex-side(s) traversed.


106.51 Each firegroup may only get one LOS check to the juncture. This would not apply to the Vassal version of the game, as when playing via Vassal there is no way to control how many LOS checks your opponent uses.
 
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Scott B
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Quote:
The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures.


The second sentence is the trip-up. But for it, the center junction would be only be allowed.

For comparison, ASL allows tracing LOS to all three junctions.

Gary, what do you see as the significance of the second sentence if one is limited to the center junction?
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Gary Kessler
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tanik wrote:

Thanks for asking that question, Scott. I've been believing that only the one juncture (in the middle of the arrow) is checked, as per the rule Scott quoted, and according to the section I've bolded.

Quote:
...but the firer also has the option (although only one LOS check per fire group is allowed) to trace his LOS to the hexside juncture of the two hexsides traversed as defined by the bypass arrow. The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures. -- 106.51


However, the example on pg 77, shows (in red) unit A, bypassing hex W1 and moving into V1. (Sorry, I was trying to get a picture included, but the Select button is missing from the uploads and I can't get it done.) The example allows DF at two points along that path, one of which is the mid arrow juncture, but also at the next juncture which is located at the end of the arrow. This suggests that any of the three hex junctures are considered for LOS.
The rule does, in fact, say, "inclusive of junctures". Plural. This also bothered me when it seemed they only wanted the one juncture to be used.
So it looks like common sense does interpret the rule correctly and it remains consistent with vehicular bypass.

So, once again, I am changing my vote. It appears as though the Rumanian officer would be in serious trouble here, after all.

edit: Gary, I see you posted while I was composing. The rule book does define the arrow as including all junctures (plural) as I mentioned above. The writing of this rule is unclear, but the red example on pg 77 does show fire at an "end-point" of the arrow, so I think we should consider that all three points are included.


In the "red" example on Page 77 (Page 89 in my rulebook) the firing unit could extend the exact same LOS you refer to into the center dot of hex W1. I don't think that is a coincidence.
 
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T. Dauphin
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sbramley1967 wrote:
juster2 wrote:
The rule seems to be:

4.6.9 106.52 (COD) Should the moving unit's bypass
counter arrow not be crossed by the LOS of a
defending unit, that defending unit may not fire
at the moving unit in that hex.


I think this is true only if you trace LOS to the hex center, it does not apply to the junction per the example on page 77. When tracing to the junction, it can be blocked by an obstacle in the bypass hex.


I think this is referring to a situation where LOS to each of the hex junctures is blocked but LOS to the hex centre is not.
Consider route 2 in the example on pg 77. Suppose the LOS is blocked by some obstacle(s) to each of the 3 junctures, but is still clear to the centre of hex X1. This clear LOS would cross the bypass arrow and would, therefore, allow fire on the moving unit.

 
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Gary Kessler
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sbramley1967 wrote:
Quote:
The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures.


The second sentence is the trip-up. But for it, the center junction would be only be allowed.

For comparison, ASL allows tracing LOS to all three junctions.

Gary, what do you see as the significance of the second sentence if one is limited to the center junction?


The bypass counter arrow is defined as covering the entire length of the two hexsides traversed, inclusive of junctures.

This sentence is trying to explain that the Bypass Movement counter does not fit perfectly into the hex. The arrow symbol on the BM counter is meant to extend all along the two sides being bypassed, from one end juncture to the other. But it doesn't in reality do so, because the marker does not fix the hex perfectly.

The BM arrow does not physically stretch completely across the hexside, but the intent is that it does stretch from juncture to juncture. Much like a roadblock counter.

This sentence does not tell us how many junctures can be fired at.
 
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T. Dauphin
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Snake Eyes wrote:
tanik wrote:



edit: Gary, I see you posted while I was composing. The rule book does define the arrow as including all junctures (plural) as I mentioned above. The writing of this rule is unclear, but the red example on pg 77 does show fire at an "end-point" of the arrow, so I think we should consider that all three points are included.


In the "red" example on Page 77 (Page 89 in my rulebook) the firing unit could extend the exact same LOS you refer to into the center dot of hex W1. I don't think that is a coincidence.


This is true, but no reference is made to the fact.
I think it's significant that the LOS is drawn and traced to the hex juncture.

edit: ...and not drawn, as in the black example, to the centre of the hex, and showing how that line crosses the bypass arrow. It seems to me that to be consistent they would have shown a LOS being traced to the centre of the hex and pointing out how it crosses the arrow at the juncture.


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Scott B
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Tanik,

i think you got it, the example on page 77 clearly shows dfph at either the center junction or the ending junction. so one can fire at any one of the three junctions.

Gary, you on board or did we miss something?

S
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Scott B
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Quote:
Your answer is in the example on page 77. Second part of the example. The unit can be fired on at 2 vertices in that instance. I can't see why it couldn't be fired at 3 were the 3rd one in LOS. This is also the way it is played in ASL. Sloppy rule writing.


-- Alain Chabot, Classic Squad Leader Facebook Group

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Gary Kessler
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Scott, thank you for posing this question to Alain, and thanks to Alain for his response. Also thanks to all who posted their their thoughts and opinions on this matter; I appreciate and respect your input.

I will concede (very reluctantly) my position to the majority opinion; so Cpl. Abu dies in a hail of Russian bullets.
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T. Dauphin
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Whoa, whoa! Hold the phone!
You didn't say somebody was going to die as a result of all this!
He was running away, after all, wasn't he!?
Damn!

Well, good luck with the rest of that game.


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Gary Kessler
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tanik wrote:
Whoa, whoa! Hold the phone!
You didn't say somebody was going to die as a result of all this!
He was running away, after all, wasn't he!?
Damn!

Well, good luck with the rest of that game.




lol

Abu was making a last ditch effort, on the final turn of the game (Black Sea Death), to reach a victory hex. Had he succeeded in reaching his destination (he had enough MP's to do so), it would have denied my opponent a victory. Abu needed to survive a 4 FP, -2 shot later down the line, however.
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craig grinnell
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I wish I had my actual rulebook instead of this electronic one. There is an example in rule 106 (maybe page 77, I dunno) where Russian squad "A" goes from "Y3 to W1"
Is that the "page 77" example?
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Scott B
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yes, that it. The diagram shows defensive fire shots to two junctures, so it not just the center.
 
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craig grinnell
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sbramley1967 wrote:
yes, that it. The diagram shows defensive fire shots to two junctures, so it not just the center.


Then I'm a tad stumped. the descriptive says that if the Russian uses "route 1" through "X1" thus going behind the building, then he is safe from fire from the squad at "V2."
Looking at board 4 (the hexes in question) there is a clear LOS, albeit barely, from the center dot on V2 to the "X1-W1-X0" vertex.

So how does the building protect for bypass movement, but the forest in the original post question does not?

It's possible I overlooked something in another response... My attention span has shortened with each new kid in my familyshake

 
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Scott B
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The red arrows point to two junctions in W1, not just the center. I've seen a few version of the boards so actual diagram attached.

S

 
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T. Dauphin
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grinnell1969 wrote:
sbramley1967 wrote:
yes, that it. The diagram shows defensive fire shots to two junctures, so it not just the center.


Then I'm a tad stumped. the descriptive says that if the Russian uses "route 1" through "X1" thus going behind the building, then he is safe from fire from the squad at "V2."
Looking at board 4 (the hexes in question) there is a clear LOS, albeit barely, from the center dot on V2 to the "X1-W1-X0" vertex.

So how does the building protect for bypass movement, but the forest in the original post question does not?

It's possible I overlooked something in another response... My attention span has shortened with each new kid in my familyshake



Yea, that one is really close. It looks like they thought it caught the edge of the woods. Probably not the best example.

So it's true what they say about afflictions like attention span.
They are genetic.
You get them from your kids.


 
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