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Hare & Tortoise» Forums » General

Subject: Hare and Tortoise renamed to Around the World in 80 Days? rss

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John
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Quote:
In early 2014, I wrote that French publisher Purple Brain Creations was publishing a new version of Gary Kim's Royal Turtle as The Hare and the Tortoise as part of its "Tales & Games" series.

Now the name of that familiar fable is coming up once again as PBC plans to launch a new series of "storybook games" — one aimed at an older audience than "Tales & Games" — in 2016 with a new version of David Parlett's Hare & Tortoise, with this design being revamped to have players live the story of Jules Verne's Around the World in 80 Days


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That's confusing. I very nearly submitted a correction to change it back. Wouldn't a new game in the database make more sense rather than renaming a SdJ winning game just because the most recent version has a new name? (Yes I know The Settlers of Catan was renamed but that was somewhat less confusing).
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Justin Case
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What the .... ?!?


This is nonsensical -- BGG has renamed a game, which has been known and popular worldwide for more than 40 years, to give priority to a new version that has zero track record and may even turn out to be a quickly forgotten non-seller??

If the play of the new game is identical and only the theme is different, it should be entered as a version to be sure, but the game page shouldn't be renamed until the new version becomes the name by which most people know the game.

shake

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John
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I agree. It's even more bizarre that it shows up as "Around the World in 80 Days (1973)" when obviously the new name is from 2016. Obviously I know why it does that but still...

I think the change happened in the last couple of days. I mentioned the game in a thread and I'm pretty sure it was Hare & Tortoise then, I looked at the thread today and thought I'd picked the wrong game. I still thought it was the wrong game initially when I looked at the game page though rapidly noticed the images below the main image showing the familiar wooden counters and box art of the RGG edition.
 
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John
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Gambiteer wrote:
If the play of the new game is identical and only the theme is different, it should be entered as a version to be sure.


It sounds like it will have some changes:

Tric Trac wrote:
David will be taking the original mechanics of The Tortoise and the Hare and giving them a bit of a modern revamp as well as a few modifications to allow it to better fit its new theme: Around the World in 80 days, by Jules Verne.


And David Parlett seems to consider it a new game based on this comment on his website:

David Parlett wrote:
Around the World in 80 Days - my new game will be unveiled in French and English at Spiel Essen this year (13-16 October).
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Matthieu BONIN
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FYI, I first submitted the game as a new implementation rather than a new version, but it was declined and I was advise to submit it as a version instead.

Now that the version was created, the name change is totally consistent with BGG's rules, as this new version will soon be available in English (while I don't think any version of this game with the name Hare & Tortoise has been available for quite some time…), but I also think it's weird to replace such a game. I'd be happier if there were 2 separate pages.
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Crazy Adam
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I understand why BGG admin has decided to change the name in the system, but it really does sound like enough changes will be made that it requires its own separate entry. If there are indeed rule tweaks, different distribution of board spaces, different effects for "jugging the hare", etc., then a lot of references in the entry for Hare & Tortoise will be irrelevant to new players. Perhaps when the final design is released that a separate entry could be made (unless it is quite clear that not enough has been changed to really differentiate H&T from AtWi80D (wow, that's an ugly abbreviation!)

I get that a general rule about name changes should be consistently applied across the board, but renaming classics - there should be an exception.

Case in point: the last time the classic abstract Camelot (1930) was released in 1985, it was renamed (by the original publishers, btw) "Inside Moves". But the BGG database still lists it as Camelot, as it is a well-established name of a historically significant game. That's just one example, but maybe there are more?

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Jim Sutherland
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Mattintheweb wrote:
I'd be happier if there were 2 separate pages.

Would make MUCH better sense IMO; just use the "re-implemented by..." slot available.

Britvic Strategy is a different game from Hare and Tortoise - not just theme, but number of players, board layout, ending conditions, etc.

I imagine your game is different from both - similar but different.

What can you do when people think black is white? they are both colours so MUST be the same thing.

Taken to a slightly elevated extreme, all the maps for TtR could be considered one game - you need the base game to play and they are all different implementations of the same principle after all..... whistle devil
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Daniel Blumentritt
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And yet this site will still insist on listing every single slightly-different version of a game as a separate game....
 
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John
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Yes, "re-implemented by" seems like it would make much more sense. There must be hundreds of entries for games which are very similar and I'm sure there are some that are different in name alone. I'm not sure BGG is always consistent in whether things are new versions or different games.

Citadels for example - there are at least 5 editions which have different components some of which are versions and some are separate entries.

Citadels - original edition with 8 characters + 12 purple districts
Citadels - edition including Citadels: The Dark City with 18 characters + 24 purple districts
Ohne Furcht und Adel - edition include 8 characters + 12 purple districts
Citadels (2016 edition) - including 27 characters + 30 purple districts, some changes to cards.
Citadels Classic - new edition including 8 characters + around 12 purple districts, at least one change to a card.

I can't see any obvious reason why the edition including Citadels: The Dark City doesn't get it's own entry.

Around the World in 80 Days may well be as different to Hare and Tortoise as Citadels (2016 edition) is to the previous English edition.

I'm sure there are lots of better examples but I can't think of any really good ones at the moment. Carcassonne: Winter Edition? Skip-Bo vs various entries for Spite & Malice? Aquarius vs Seven Dragons? Boon vs Sheepshead?
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Matthieu BONIN
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I really think it sort of just happened, with no clear intentions behind:
• I submitted the game as a new implementation
• a mod asked me how different it is from the original game
• I answered: "The rules are pretty similar (not 100%, but almost), but the thematic/art/components have all changed."
• It was decided to add it as a new version instead
• Following BGG's rules, the game page and image was changed accordingly

The game will be available at SPIEL, and the rules should be online before then, so it might well change things a bit.
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John
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Mattintheweb wrote:
The game will be available at SPIEL, and the rules should be online before then, so it might well change things a bit.

Excellent - good luck with the game and hopefully seeing the rules will persuade BGG to add it as a new game re-implementing Hare and Tortoise.
 
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Matt Loscutoff
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col_w
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Yes, this is annoying. Subscriptions now come in with the name of a game I don't own. I very nearly marked them as read without opening them.

Also, if anyone has used the 'Insert Board Game' function in a post and used Hare and Tortoise, this has changed their post. For example, click through and look at the first line of this review: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise.

It used to say "Hare and Tortoise is a classic game by David Parlett and winner of the 1979 Spiel des Jahres award.". Folowed by a box photo also showing Hare and Tortoise.

Now it says "Around the World in 80 Days is a classic game by David Parlett and winner of the 1979 Spiel des Jahres award.", which doesn't make sense given the rest of the review and the photos. And of course there may be other posts, GeekList entries etc. where the title of the game no longer makes sense.

For context, Eric Martin updated the policy a few years back to handle situations like this. Hopefully this case is an oversight, and will get resolved via the re-implements system soon.
Extraditing Penguins from Westeros, a.k.a. Updating BGG's Policy on Game Merges
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W. Eric Martin
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Crisis averted. Here's the separate game listing for Around the World in 80 Days.
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Justin Case
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W Eric Martin wrote:
Crisis averted. Here's the separate game listing for Around the World in 80 Days.

Hooray! thumbsup

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John
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W Eric Martin wrote:
Crisis averted.

Excellent.

I see there's an image of the new game and it's possible to see most of the board. I posted a few observations:

Differences to Hare & Tortoise

I think there may be enough differences to have classified as a separate game even without the name change (though that's academic now).
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Marc Gilutin
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New crisis: There's already a very fine game called Around the World in 80 Days.
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freechinanow wrote:

Case in point: the last time the classic abstract Camelot (1930) was released in 1985, it was renamed (by the original publishers, btw) "Inside Moves". But the BGG database still lists it as Camelot, as it is a well-established name of a historically significant game. That's just one example, but maybe there are more?



Camelot is called Camelot because the versions list shows the most recent release was an English edition in 2014 called Camelot:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5251/camelot/versions

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Crazy Adam
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indigopotter wrote:
freechinanow wrote:

Case in point: the last time the classic abstract Camelot (1930) was released in 1985, it was renamed (by the original publishers, btw) "Inside Moves". But the BGG database still lists it as Camelot, as it is a well-established name of a historically significant game. That's just one example, but maybe there are more?



Camelot is called Camelot because the versions list shows the most recent release was an English edition in 2014 called Camelot:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5251/camelot/versions



This doesn't appear to always be a hard and fast rule. For example, the latest "version" of chess is titled "Chess ‐ Tactic Thunderbirds 50th Anniversary edition" but it isn't referred to as such (obviously) as the main title of the game. I assume well-established games get left alone or games like chess, Monopoly, Operation, etc. would get frequent name changes.
 
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John
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But the latest version of chess is clearly not the only version currently available. I was trying to think of exceptions too, Uno was the first thing I thought of but again basic Uno has always been available alongside themed editions.
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