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Subject: Cumulatively add... - Suggestion for Counters rss

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Nate Parkes
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Whoo! Funded! Whoo!

Okay, so question/suggestion:

Two of Ascalon Alpha's abilities have the wording "each time you are the Target of an attack cumatively add..."

Quote:
GUNSLINGER TANGO!
While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter, each time you are the Target of an attack cumatively add +1 Attack Dice to your Ranged Attack Rolls.

BALLISTIC BALLET!
While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter, each time you are the Target of an attack cumatively increase your Defense by +1.


For example: Gunslinger Tango!

I'm assuming the meaning is if I was targeted by three attacks, I would be able to add +3 attack dice to my ranged attack rolls.

But this does introduce an element of bookkeeping into the game, where you need to keep a running tally of a particular event.

Would it be possible to borrow the language of some other CCG games to include the bookkeeping on the card itself? Such as:

Quote:
GUNSLINGER TANGO!
While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter, each time you are the Target of an attack, add 1 counter to this card.

All your Ranged Attacks gain +X Attack Dice, where X is the number of counters on this card.

When this card is deactivated or leaves your cooldown meter, remove all counters from it.


I know it's wordier, but I think it's clearer, and people who are accustomed to these types of games will appreciate the self-contained nature of it.
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Alex Cheng
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That would definitely help with book keeping. Ascalon requires more than most also with its Bullet Buffet Ultimate as well. I think we can change the phrasing and the resolution without losing the cards' balance and without needing new components though.
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Nate Parkes
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jetjagaa wrote:
That would definitely help with book keeping. Ascalon requires more than most also with its Bullet Buffet Ultimate as well. I think we can change the phrasing and the resolution without losing the cards' balance and without needing new components though.


I hear you on the components. I was thinking in terms of a game like Magic, where it's just assumed you'll use something you have (usually d6's), but since this game is so self-contained, it would make sense not to ask the player to bring their own counters.

Using an existing trauma token would lead to confusion, so that's obviously out. Power tokens might lead to confusion, too.

What about using a barrier or impact token as a counter?
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mathew rynich
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Yeah I agree adding a counter to a card is a bit problematic since this would be the only instance of that occurring and we have no real generic tokens for this purpose. I think the language could be tighter and if anything probably putting a die on the card would be best using the pips as a reminder given the components of the game. That way you don't have to worry about the cards causing you to go over the limited number of tokens in the core box.
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Nate Parkes
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jetjagaa wrote:
That would definitely help with book keeping. Ascalon requires more than most also with its Bullet Buffet Ultimate as well. I think we can change the phrasing and the resolution without losing the cards' balance and without needing new components though.


I should add that I was thinking about this as I looked across the instants for Ascalaon Alpha which are INSANELY COOL.

Using an Instant to represent special ammunition is brilliant.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Eldil wrote:
Using an Instant to represent special ammunition is brilliant.


Keeps your opponent's robot guessing!

To your point on cumulative dice and adding another micromanagement system: I also love that sort of counter language (Alex and I play Spoils CCG and we know it very well).

I changed the language on both to the following:

While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter add +1 Defense Dice to your Defense Rolls. Each time you are the Target of an attack Increase this card in your Cooldown Meter by 1 Cooldown Slot.

While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter add +1 Attack Dice to your Ranged Attack Rolls. Each time you are the Target of an attack Increase this card in your Cooldown Meter by 1 Cooldown Slot.


I think it's better to let the Cool Down system do it's thing rather than forcing players to account for something and not provide the tools to do it. It also introduces a card that increases in your cool down as a benefit. Don't you dare try to put a power surge on Ascalon Alpha while he has both of these Activated in cool down because they'll just get juggled for days.
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Nate Parkes
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schlagamuffin wrote:

I changed the language on both to the following:

While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter add +1 Defense Dice to your Defense Rolls. Each time you are the Target of an attack Increase this card in your Cooldown Meter by 1 Cooldown Slot.

While this card is Activated in your Cooldown Meter add +1 Attack Dice to your Ranged Attack Rolls. Each time you are the Target of an attack Increase this card in your Cooldown Meter by 1 Cooldown Slot.


I think it's better to let the Cool Down system do it's thing rather than forcing players to account for something and not provide the tools to do it. It also introduces a card that increases in your cool down as a benefit. Don't you dare try to put a power surge on Ascalon Alpha while he has both of these triggered because they'll just get juggled for days.


I wasn't anticipating that you'd change the actual mechanics of the card, but this is certainly cleaner, and it does use the internal mechanism of the cooldown meter, which is nice.

Thematically, the previous version suggested that as Ascalon comes under increased fire, the "dance" becomes more intense, conveying higher and higher defense and attack bonuses.

In this new version, when Ascalon is attacked the dance is prolonged, saving you spirit. It's like Ascalon "borrows" the energy of the attack to extend the dance.
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Scott S
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And I love how it uses the cooldown meter in a new way. Increasing the cooldown for an effect is ripe for design possibilities.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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I also think this adds more weight to the cool down meter as a driving mechanic of the game. The previous version of the two cards seemed a bit simple and too much like a Magic or Spoils mechanic - bean counting cards are fun but why do that when we have a cool down meter!?

It also makes balancing these cards in cool down fun for Ascalon. Before an opponent could just sit out the two rounds and save up FS or power while the card was activated, knowing that the cumulative buffs could get crazy. Here, attacking increases the card in cool down, prolonging the bonus to Ascalon, but a maneuver to combat advantage from your opponent could negate Ascalon's buff, thereby encouraging interaction instead of stifling it.

Not a big change but I think it's for the better all around.
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Nate Parkes
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schlagamuffin wrote:
Before an opponent could just sit out the two rounds and save up FS or power while the card was activated, knowing that the cumulative buffs could get crazy. Here, attacking increases the card in cool down, prolonging the bonus to Ascalon, but a maneuver to combat advantage from your opponent could negate Ascalon's buff, thereby encouraging interaction instead of stifling it.


Right. Before, attacking an enemy Ascalon gave that Ascalon additional defense or attack, cumulatively, so there was a greater incentive to wait it out.

Now attacking an enemy Ascalon effectively gives it a roundabout spirit bonus, since it delays the cost of playing the card again by another round. There's still an incentive to wait it out (and force the Ascalon to effectively pay more average spirit per round for the effect), but I think most players would simply let the buff ride and attack away.
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mathew rynich
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schlagamuffin wrote:
It also introduces a card that increases in your cool down as a benefit. Don't you dare try to put a power surge on Ascalon Alpha while he has both of these triggered because they'll just get juggled for days.


I hadn't thought about this before but that's true. Any build that can field a cooldown activated buff actually kind of welcomes Power Surges. I hadn't played Dai-Raijin V yet, but that guy seems to love getting electrocuted He's got quite a few cooldown buffs.

I'd love to trigger BREAK THE SEAL–CERBERUS FANG! then voluntarily give myself some Power Surges. Luckily ShinOkami has no real dependable way to give itself a Power Surge token.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Eldil wrote:
but I think most players would simply let the buff ride and attack away.


If I were Dash|Dai-Raijin V I would sit back and gain my 20FS over the two rounds. But that's my play style.

I know Alex and others would attempt to get Combat Advantage and negate the Attack or Defense buff, or take Takashi|Chogoking and go HAM, but that's the fun!

In general though back to the main point, I hope people will appreciate using the cool down meter and letting the card mechanics lean on it rather than borrowing the bean counting element from some CCGs.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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phillosmaster wrote:
I hadn't thought about this before but that's true. Any build that can field a cooldown activated buff actually kind of welcomes Power Surges.


Ayzn has some really nice defensive Activated-in-cooldown cards, but I am not all that smart when it comes to trauma micro-management.
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Nate Parkes
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Have you ever considered limiting the effect of power surges to deactivated cards?

It might seem a little swingy for a debuff to basically become a buff for certain robots.

Edit: I realize that both Chogoking and Raijin V both have abilities that turn fire and power surges into positive effects, but they still suffer the negative parts of those trauma effects, too.

I dunno, just thinking.
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Rock Bronson

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schlagamuffin wrote:
In general though back to the main point, I hope people will appreciate using the cool down meter and letting the card mechanics lean on it rather than borrowing the bean counting element from some CCGs.


One of the things I love about Giga-Robo is it's moderate token count. I don't mind counters at all- but at some point one more bookkeeping task begins to decrease fun for me even if it provides an interesting system to manage.

Approve!
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Oblivion Doll
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Eldil wrote:
Have you ever considered limiting the effect of power surges to deactivated cards?

It might seem a little swingy for a debuff to basically become a buff for certain robots.

Edit: I realize that both Chogoking and Raijin V both have abilities that turn fire and power surges into positive effects, but they still suffer the negative parts of those trauma effects, too.

I dunno, just thinking.


Personally, I like the fact that power surges can have both positive AND negative effects - kind of like they do in most super robot stories. It's a risky way to buff certain effects or keep special abilities powered, but it might burn out some other systems along the way.

To make it feel more "risk" and less "reward", though, I'd be tempted to suggest that when allocating power surge effects, you have to prioritise deactivated cards in that cooldown slot first.

EDIT: Also, while I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this change to Ascalon's rules, I had just planned to use an extra die or 2 as my counter for the relevant abilities. Seems pretty simple and the game comes with plenty of them.

ANOTHER EDIT: I have asked a question relating to the rules (as an addendum on my build which uses Gunslinger Tango). I updated that post and realised it hasn't been answered yet, and is still relevant. So... does a counterattack count as an attack targeting you?
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Ethan Krindle
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obliviondoll wrote:

Personally, I like the fact that power surges can have both positive AND negative effects - kind of like they do in most super robot stories. It's a risky way to buff certain effects or keep special abilities powered, but it might burn out some other systems along the way.


Also, keep in mind that the power surge and the card it affects don't "travel together" - so you would need to keep adding new power surges in order to keep a card perpetually "locked" in place, and unless you had activated abilities in every cooldown slot, eventually those power surges are going to start affecting cards that you don't want stuck in cooldown. So the system is actually not that easy to exploit, unless you specifically build your strategy around doing so.

obliviondoll wrote:

To make it feel more "risk" and less "reward", though, I'd be tempted to suggest that when allocating power surge effects, you have to prioritise deactivated cards in that cooldown slot first.


Maybe, although I'm a little worried about how that might throw off the balance of builds that are expected to use surge tokens to their advantage, particularly with Dai-Raijin V.
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