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Bios: Genesis» Forums » Rules

Subject: What cubes are stolen by Hyperparasite? rss

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Jakub Ukrop
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Which cubes can a hyperparasite steal?

a) Cubes from the host parasite card
b) Cubes from the host parasite's mutation cards
c) Both

I find the explanation in E3 somewhat ambiguous. (But I'm leaning to the interpretation b) that parasites always steal mutation cubes (or organs), regardless of host type).
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Matt Watkins
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dill wrote:
Which cubes can a hyperparasite steal?

a) Cubes from the host parasite card
b) Cubes from the host parasite's mutation cards
c) Both

I find the explanation in E3 somewhat ambiguous. (But I'm leaning to the interpretation b) that parasites always steal mutation cubes (or organs), regardless of host type).


Reading it again, I think you're right. It should always steal mutation cubes and not diseased cubes, which means I did this incorrectly in turn 10 of my session report.
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Kyrill Melai
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Once I could recite whole episodes of Dexter's Laboratory.
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You are right that E3 is somewhat ambiguous. And I am pretty sure you steal cubes from the mutations of the parasite.

It is a matter of definition. Are Diseased cubes sitting on a parasite still mutation cubes? Browsing through the rules it appears the parasite does not consider its diseased cubes to be mutation cubes. This prevents these cubes from being taken by a hyperparasite as his diseased cubes.

Stealing diseased cubes from a parasite would constitute an attempt at supplanting the parasite per E4.

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Jakub Ukrop
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Thanks for the quick answers. (Yes, turn 10 of the session report inspired this question too.)

Another thing I'm looking at (literally) right now:
- bacterium has 1 promoted yellow+green mutation
- it was invaded by proteobacteria that stole that secondary green cube
(is this valid? can it steal a part of promoted mutation? any part?)
- now the Darwin roll went bad and I need to discard my only mutation cube, the yellow one

In case that the parasite invasion was valid (which I'm not sure of), what will happen with the mutation?
It's secondary green cube still lives in the parasite but the primary yellow cube is lost.
The only solution I see is to discard the mutation and also the diseased green cube.
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Matt Watkins
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Hmmm, interesting question. I'd say that the parasite can't steal cubes from a promoted mutation unless it can steal both cubes. This makes thematic sense; the promoted mutation has both chromosomes and the parasite would have to be adapted to both of them. The rules sort of support this (from the 3rd bullet in E3):

Quote:
It can steal up to two cubes, either from two Mutations or one promoted Mutation.


Note the distinction there between "Mutation" and "promoted Mutation".

EDIT: Red queen attacks still make the situation possible. Your solution (kill the mutation) may be the only one that works consistently.
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Phil Eklund
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dill wrote:
Which cubes can a hyperparasite steal?

a) Cubes from the host parasite card
b) Cubes from the host parasite's mutation cards
c) Both

I find the explanation in E3 somewhat ambiguous. (But I'm leaning to the interpretation b) that parasites always steal mutation cubes (or organs), regardless of host type).


Changed E3 in the Living Rules to clarify:
If the Host is another Parasite, steal the Diseased cubes from the Host Parasite’s mutation cards per the preceding bullet.

dill wrote:
Thanks for the quick answers. (Yes, turn 10 of the session report inspired this question too.)

Another thing I'm looking at (literally) right now:
- bacterium has 1 promoted yellow+green mutation
- it was invaded by proteobacteria that stole that secondary green cube
(is this valid? can it steal a part of promoted mutation? any part?)
- now the Darwin roll went bad and I need to discard my only mutation cube, the yellow one

In case that the parasite invasion was valid (which I'm not sure of), what will happen with the mutation?
It's secondary green cube still lives in the parasite but the primary yellow cube is lost.
The only solution I see is to discard the mutation and also the diseased green cube.


I added a phrase to the "Atrophy" entry in the Living Rules glossary to cover this situation:
<Editted after discussion with Rich James>
Atrophy. Loss of a Chromosome (either cube or Biont) from an Organism, caused by some events or Error Catastrophe. Mutation cubes must be lost first, then other cubes (Chromosomes, Diseased cubes, and Organs), then Bionts (Chromosomes, Foreign Genes, or Endosymbionts), and finally Trophic Bionts. In the case of oxygen spike attacks (D6), each Antioxidant or Vitamin can count as a Mutation cube. Mutations cubes with a “+” (on promoted Mutations) must be lost before other Mutation cubes, and this demotes the Mutation.

• Atrophied Mutations. If the Mutation cube marked with a “+” is atrophied from a promoted Mutation, the Mutation is flipped (i.e demoted). A Mutation cube atrophied from an unpromoted Mutation discards it. All Mutations discarded are placed face-up on the bottom of the Mutation deck in the Microorganism’s home row. The discarding player chooses the order discarded.

• Atrophied Diseased Cubes. If your Parasite atrophies a Diseased cube (E3), this causes the Mutation which lost the cube originally to be discarded or unpromoted per the previous bullet.

I have also changed Red Queen living rules in H4:
• Red Queen against a Host. Steal one of the Host’s Organ or Mutation cubes as a Diseased cube, if you have an empty ‘Host’s Diseased Cube’ slot of the right color to put it. For promoted Mutations, only the ‘+’ cube may be stolen, which demotes the Mutation. For Disease effects, see glossary.
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Jakub Ukrop
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Thank you for all the clarifications. A crystal catastrophe poses no danger for the Living Rules cool.
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Dom B.
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Warning, the previous answer’s last sentence was changed in October
Now the living rules say: For promoted Mutations, only the ‘+’ cube may be stolen, which does not demote the Mutation
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Phil Eklund
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Dom22 wrote:
Warning, the previous answer’s last sentence was changed in October
Now the living rules say: For promoted Mutations, only the ‘+’ cube may be stolen, which does not demote the Mutation


Upon reflection, altered this in E3 to say:

• Diseased Mutations. Each Parasite has two colored slots labeled Diseased cubes. To attach to a Bacterial Host, the Parasite must steal at least one of its Mutation cubes (H1) and put them into the Diseased slots of the correct color. It can steal up to two cubes, either from two Mutations or one promoted Mutation. Losing diseased cubes does not demote or remove the Host’s Mutations, or affect its Ability icons. However, a lost diseased cube sitting on the Parasite is not useful to the Host.
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Matt Watkins
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It might be better to say "Losing mutation cubes to disease does not..." because if the diseased cubes are actually lost from the parasite due to atrophy, then the mutation is demoted/lost.
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Phil Eklund
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Matt_W wrote:
It might be better to say "Losing mutation cubes to disease does not..." because if the diseased cubes are actually lost from the parasite due to atrophy, then the mutation is demoted/lost.


OK, using this wording for the reasons Matt cites.
 
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