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Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Red Lotus' "Trick Steal" - a few questions rss

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Ethan Krindle
Canada
Campbell River
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Hi all, I have a few questions about Red Lotus' ability "Trick Steal", which reads: "You may choose to receive the Yield of an opponent’s Trick in the same Performance instead of your own Trick’s Yield, as long as you are the Performer and the opponent’s Trick has the same or lower Fame Threshold as yours. The opponent receives one less Fame for the Trick stolen this way."

1) Am I right in thinking that you can only do this once per performance, even if you have multiple tricks and multiple opponents' tricks on the same card?

2) Does Red Lotus also steal the weekday modifier of her opponent's trick (e.g. if the opponent is slated to appear on Sunday, does Red Lotus benefit from the +1 fame/coin)? Or does she only steal the "base" yield for the trick (presumably as modified by her own weekday modifier)? I assume the latter but I wanted to check.

3) Suppose Red Lotus steals a trick from an opponent who is slated to appear on Sunday. The trick has a base yield of zero fame, but because of the Sunday bonus, the opponent would normally receive 1 fame for it. Does Red Lotus' trick steal fame penalty apply before or after the opponent adds in their Sunday bonus? (I.e. Does the opponent get 0 fame -1 (trick steal) = 0, +1 (Sunday) = 1; or do they get O fame +1 (Sunday) = 1, -1 (trick steal) = 0?) Or to put it another way, does the trick steal penalty apply to the base, unmodified yield of a trick, or to the total yield the opponent would normally receive after other modifiers are accounted for?
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Barry Miller
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Saint Charles
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1) Yes. The wording is very specific: "...may choose to receive the Yield of an opponent's Trick in the same performance..."
I bolded both "an", and "Trick" as both words are used in the singular.

Edit: I deleted my incorrect replies to questions 2 and 3. See Richard's official answer, further below. Although I cited the rulebook, I nonetheless misinterpreted the rules when combining the day-of-the-week yield modifiers with the Red Lotus ability. My apologies to the OP!

 
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Paulo Renato
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1)
I would say that you could use that power as often as you can in the same performance that you are performing...
What I mean is that if you have 2 tricks and only 1 opponent trick you could only do that once... but if you have 2 tricks and 2 opponents tricks you could steal the Yield of one and then the other instead of receiving what you would for your tricks...

I think you can steal more than once but not steal the same trick twice if I make myself clear...

But that's just my opinion... I can be wrong

2)
It doesn't steal the weekday modifier, you always receive the modifiers of the day you are performing... the other players receive the modifiers of the days they are performing...
When you steal you only steal the Yield you don't steal any modifiers

3)
I would say the penalty applies to the Base Yield of the trick without modifiers... so in that case it would mean he would receive 1 fame...

Again, I'm not sure on this one also... it's my opinion and I can be wrong
 
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Paulo Renato
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bgm1961 wrote:

1) Yes. The wording is very specific: "...may choose to receive the Yield of an opponent's Trick in the same performance..."
I bolded both "an", and "Trick" as both words are used in the singular.

2) Yes. Though not specifically stated in the rules, the white box on page 17 explains how the Thu/Sun Yield Modifiers are applied. The box does specify that the Yield modifier applies even if the trick is being performed by someone else, which is the case here.

3) Total yield. The wording of the RL ability is simple: "The opponent receives one less Fame for the Trick stolen this way." So if with the Sunday bonus, the trick owner would normally end-up receiving one Fame, the Red Lotus ability takes that away.

Hope this helps!



I don't understand if you are saying that he steals the modifiers or not... if you are saying that he steals the modifiers of the other player I think you are wrong...

The rules are very clear that each player receives the modifiers of the day they are performing...
So if the Red Lotus is performing on a Thursday he gets the -1 for all of their tricks, if instead he chooses to receive the Yield of another magician trick in the performance card he his making he will still get the -1 for performing it on a Thursday even if the other magician is on the Sunday slot...

That makes no different to the Red Lotus modifier
 
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Ethan Krindle
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Well, we have two completely opposite opinions... so at least it's not just me, I guess. Thanks to both of you for your input. Absent an official ruling, my own thoughts are:

1) Barry, I don't think it's as clear-cut as you suggest. You are right that the language makes it clear that only a single trick can be stolen per use of the power. The question, though, is whether I can use the power multiple times in the same performance. If, after stealing a trick, the conditions still exist that would allow me to activate the power again (i.e. an unperformed Red Lotus trick and an unstolen Opponent's trick), does anything preclude me from activating the power a second time? I don't think there's anything that says the power is limited to a single use per turn, though I agree that "feels" more like what was intended.

2) The "Yield modifiers" box on Page 17 says "This also applies when the player’s Tricks are part of another player’s Performance", not "when the trick is being performed by someone else". I read this as referring to when another performing magician chooses to activate a performance card that has my tricks on it (and in which I am performing my own tricks as a "guest performer"), not as a reference to Red Lotus' power. Personally I think it makes more sense to say that Red Lotus "performs" the opponent's trick at base yield (subject to her own modifiers), as though it were one of her tricks on the card.

3) Really not sure which way to go with this one - I agree that as written, "The opponent receives one less Fame" does support Barry's interpretation, and that's the way I played it the other night. I'm just not sure whether that was the actual intent of the designers. Thematically it does make sense that a rival stealing your show is going to hurt your image if there's any image left to be hurt - but it creates a mechanically odd scenario where, if I'm right about (2) above, Red Lotus can deprive an opponent of a fame without actually stealing it for herself.
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Tobias Lunte
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Garrel
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Azilut wrote:
Well, we have two completely opposite opinions... so at least it's not just me, I guess. Thanks to both of you for your input. Absent an official ruling, my own thoughts are:

1) Barry, I don't think it's as clear-cut as you suggest. You are right that the language makes it clear that only a single trick can be stolen per use of the power. The question, though, is whether I can use the power multiple times in the same performance. If, after stealing a trick, the conditions still exist that would allow me to activate the power again (i.e. an unperformed Red Lotus trick and an unstolen Opponent's trick), does anything preclude me from activating the power a second time? I don't think there's anything that says the power is limited to a single use per turn, though I agree that "feels" more like what was intended.

2) The "Yield modifiers" box on Page 17 says "This also applies when the player’s Tricks are part of another player’s Performance", not "when the trick is being performed by someone else". I read this as referring to when another performing magician chooses to activate a performance card that has my tricks on it (and in which I am performing my own tricks as a "guest performer"), not as a reference to Red Lotus' power. Personally I think it makes more sense to say that Red Lotus "performs" the opponent's trick at base yield (subject to her own modifiers), as though it were one of her tricks on the card.

3) Really not sure which way to go with this one - I agree that as written, "The opponent receives one less Fame" does support Barry's interpretation, and that's the way I played it the other night. I'm just not sure whether that was the actual intent of the designers. Thematically it does make sense that a rival stealing your show is going to hurt your image if there's any image left to be hurt - but it creates a mechanically odd scenario where, if I'm right about (2) above, Red Lotus can deprive an opponent of a fame without actually stealing it for herself.


I still haven't played this yet, but as unsure as I am about the first two questions, I'm very much in favor of stealing that fame for question 3. I come from this from a very mathematical angle, but the problem is basically this: We have a base (0) and two modifiers (+1, -1) to be added up. In any addition, the order of the summands doesn't have any impact on the sum. Furthermore, any simplifications should, if at all, should only be applied to the final result, not in between steps. So "can't receive less than 0 fame" doesn't actually trigger until all modifiers have been applied, at which point the fame payout is 0 anyway.
 
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George
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I'll chime in with a mix of the above opinions even though it's just another guess...

1) I think there is strong indication you can only do it once per performance. For me, it's the wording at the end "one less Fame for the Trick stolen this way." instead of "each Trick". But stronger, there is really no clear indication that you CAN use it more than once. If you actually can, then I would say that is pretty poor rulebook writing. Mechanically, it also would double up the power in a pretty big way.

2 & 3). Honestly, this could go either way but I think these questions are asking the same thing. Does the performer yield modifier apply or not? If it does, then the answer to #3 is that the 1 Fame less applies to the total. I'm leaning toward the day yield modifier does NOT apply. Thematically it makes sense that Red Lotus is performing the trick herself. And looking at the power and iconography in simplest terms, I would think she just is only swapping in the trick yields (then applying her performance modifiers as normal).

Hoping for official word!
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Phil Triest
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It would be nice if the designers chimed in here. I am more toward Muse's reasoning here except for his response on #1. For me it is a one time use per turn like the rest of the performer abilities.
 
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Richard Amann
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Hey Guys,

1) Only once / performance. Unfortunately it's not written in the appendix, although it is marked on the card with "1x" over the equal sign.

2) No, she only steals the Tricks yield.

3) Again, this only goes for the Tricks yield.

Based on this topic, we'll change the description of this card for the 3rd edition to be more clear. Anyway, I encourage you to try interpreting the symbols, they might just give you the answer in such cases.

Cheers,
Richard
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Paulo Renato
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Amric wrote:
Hey Guys,

1) Only once / performance. Unfortunately it's not written in the appendix, although it is marked on the card with "1x" over the equal sign.

2) No, she only steals the Tricks yield.

3) Again, this only goes for the Tricks yield.

Based on this topic, we'll change the description of this card for the 3rd edition to be more clear. Anyway, I encourage you to try interpreting the symbols, they might just give you the answer in such cases.

Cheers,
Richard


Thanks for clarifying Richard
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Phil Triest
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Amric wrote:
Hey Guys,

1) Only once / performance. Unfortunately it's not written in the appendix, although it is marked on the card with "1x" over the equal sign.

2) No, she only steals the Tricks yield.

3) Again, this only goes for the Tricks yield.

Based on this topic, we'll change the description of this card for the 3rd edition to be more clear. Anyway, I encourage you to try interpreting the symbols, they might just give you the answer in such cases.

Cheers,
Richard


So I was right lol. That's a first given my patchy history playing rules wrong...
 
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Ethan Krindle
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Thanks for the reply, Richard!
 
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