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Subject: Playing the Knight Solo rss

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A. B. West
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So I'm just starting the game and thought I might as well play through the roles (except for the Cave) to learn the game a bit. I'm starting with the Knight.

(1) I have 1 Move an 1 Perception without placing any cubes - these are 'free'. Now say I want to move to a dark tile. Is that 1 move or 1 perception? Or is it 1 of both? The rules aren't clear to me on this point.

(2) Again, playing solo. Say I have previously revealed an encounter tile. If I move on to it a second time, do I draw another Encounter card?

(3) Placing tiles. I am the Knight and I have just revealed a tile and am now standing on it. I have resolved the encounter. Do I now draw tiles to place in all the open spots around the tile? And then do I *again* draw tiles at the end of my turn? It seems I draw 1 for each cube I have PLUS 1 additional tile - so at the beginning of the game, I'd be drawing 3 tiles at the end of each turn PLUS any tiles that are placed by the 'Cave' when I reveal tiles. For the additional tiles, where are they placed? Anyhere?

Thanks for the answers!
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Blayne Miley
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I'm still trying to figure things out myself, but when I played the Knight solo, here's how I handled things:

adamw wrote:
(1) I have 1 Move an 1 Perception without placing any cubes - these are 'free'. Now say I want to move to a dark tile. Is that 1 move or 1 perception? Or is it 1 of both? The rules aren't clear to me on this point.


Moving onto the dark tile is 1 move. Having an encounter on the tile (flipping it over) is 1 perception.

adamw wrote:
(2) Again, playing solo. Say I have previously revealed an encounter tile. If I move on to it a second time, do I draw another Encounter card?


I do not belive so.

adamw wrote:
(3) Placing tiles. I am the Knight and I have just revealed a tile and am now standing on it. I have resolved the encounter. Do I now draw tiles to place in all the open spots around the tile? And then do I *again* draw tiles at the end of my turn? It seems I draw 1 for each cube I have PLUS 1 additional tile - so at the beginning of the game, I'd be drawing 3 tiles at the end of each turn PLUS any tiles that are placed by the 'Cave' when I reveal tiles. For the additional tiles, where are they placed? Anywhere?


Correct. I played it as you could place the tiles anywhere, so it became a strategic decision.
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Peter Rabinowitz
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To my understanding...
adamw wrote:
(1) say I want to move to a dark tile. Is that 1 move or 1 perception? Or is it 1 of both?

One of both. Moving from one tile to another (light or dark) costs 1 movement. If you move into a dark tile you must flip it to light, which will cost 1 encounter. If you do not have any encounters left, you cannot move into a dark tile, regardless of how much movement you have left.

Quote:
(2) Say I have previously revealed an encounter tile. If I move on to it a second time, do I draw another Encounter card?

No. However, sometimes something will happen which will flip a dark tile to light without you having entered the tile. For example, a Dragon can light up tiles using flame. If, for example, an event tile was thus flipped then you put an event token on the tile to show that the event hasn't been dealt with yet. If the Knight later moves into this tile, she'll have to deal with the event by taking an event card.

Quote:
(3) Placing tiles. It seems I draw 1 for each cube I have PLUS 1 additional tile

Yes.

Quote:
so at the beginning of the game, I'd be drawing 3 tiles at the end of each turn PLUS any tiles that are placed by the 'Cave' when I reveal tiles.

Yes.

Quote:
For the additional tiles, where are they placed? Anyhere?

Next to any dark or light tile, regardless of walls.
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Kyle
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adamw wrote:
(1) I have 1 Move an 1 Perception without placing any cubes - these are 'free'. Now say I want to move to a dark tile. Is that 1 move or 1 perception? Or is it 1 of both? The rules aren't clear to me on this point.
It costs you one of each. One movement to enter the tile, then one perception to reveal and resolve it.

Quote:
(2) Again, playing solo. Say I have previously revealed an encounter tile. If I move on to it a second time, do I draw another Encounter card?
Generally speaking, each event tile can be triggered only once. If the Knight reveals the tile that happens immediately. If the tile is revealed by another player (Flame, Flare, etc.) or the Vantage Point event they get marked with event tokens, which the Knight will have to resolve if she enters the tile.

The Cave player also has the ability to reset them by placing event tokens on previously-cleared event tiles.

Quote:
(3) Placing tiles. I am the Knight and I have just revealed a tile and am now standing on it. I have resolved the encounter. Do I now draw tiles to place in all the open spots around the tile?
Prior to the collapse beginning, open edges on newly-revealed tiles are always filled with new dark tiles immediately, regardless of how they were revealed or which player did it. Once the collapse begins, open edges remain open.

Quote:
And then do I *again* draw tiles at the end of my turn? It seems I draw 1 for each cube I have PLUS 1 additional tile - so at the beginning of the game, I'd be drawing 3 tiles at the end of each turn PLUS any tiles that are placed by the 'Cave' when I reveal tiles. For the additional tiles, where are they placed? Anyhere?
The effect of the Alone in the Dark card used for solo is intended to replace the normal single tile placement at the end of a turn, so you would only need to place two additional tiles on your first turn (unless you managed to gain an extra cube or two already).

You can place the end-of-turn tiles anywhere on the map. This goes for any variant that doesn't have a Cave player, not just solo.

It's often helpful to place those extra tiles as near to your current location as possible, so when you reveal more tiles on your next turn the edges that would have been opened will already have dark tiles in place, which slows down the growth of the cave slightly.
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kc2dpt wrote:
To my understanding...
adamw wrote:
If you do not have any encounters left, you cannot move into a dark tile, regardless of how much movement you have left.


Not only that, but your turn immediately ends when you run out of movement OR encounters, so you may not move anywhere.
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Benji68 wrote:
kc2dpt wrote:
To my understanding...
adamw wrote:
If you do not have any encounters left, you cannot move into a dark tile, regardless of how much movement you have left.


Not only that, but your turn immediately ends when you run out of movement OR encounters, so you may not move anywhere.


I heard Patrick mention this in the Knight video, and I must have missed it in the rules, but I find this rule to be overly restricting and have ignored so far with our 2 Knight plays.

In theory as long as you have at least 2 cubes left in hand, even if you have exhausted your movement and perception your turn continues as you can in theory assign 1 each to movement and perception to carry on while satisfying this rule.

However, if you assign 1 of those cubes anywhere but perception or movement, say Bow or Strength, then the turn ends as you now are stuck at either 0 perception OR movement. This is harsh, especially early on and painful to rule and police.

How are others doing this in practice?
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Benji68 wrote:
kc2dpt wrote:
To my understanding...
adamw wrote:
If you do not have any encounters left, you cannot move into a dark tile, regardless of how much movement you have left.


Not only that, but your turn immediately ends when you run out of movement OR encounters, so you may not move anywhere.

Yeah, I read that, but something bothers me about it. Why couldn't the Knight use her remaining movement to move through lit tiles?
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Kyle
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The restriction on movement and encounters is very much intentional, because it makes cube management a major part of playing the Knight well.

Until you build up enough of a supply of cubes to do mostly what you want each turn, there's going to be that trade-off between pushing to explore more tiles and going after other players.

I can't recall the specifics, but there were some issues that came up way back in testing when movement was still allowed after running out of encounters, so that's why it's disallowed now.

However, you don't have to assign all of your cubes up front and you can wait to add them to stats until you need them. With the exception of the Heroic Boots (+4 Movement), you'll never add more than 2 movement from any one cube, so as long as you're adding to movement only as needed the most movement that will ever go to waste is one step per turn. With good timing, they'll run out at the same time.

That end of turn trigger isn't meant to be ultra strict. As long as you still have cubes available to assign you can use them to finish up your turn. If you're out of both movement and encounters but have one cube left, you can still assign it to something, but you can't keep running around if you're out of encounters.
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Woelf wrote:

That end of turn trigger isn't meant to be ultra strict. As long as you still have cubes available to assign you can use them to finish up your turn. If you're out of both movement and encounters but have one cube left, you can still assign it to something, but you can't keep running around if you're out of encounters.


But that is quite different from what the rules say. According to the rules, if i use up my last movement point to enter a dark tile, i can't use a last encounter point (which i must still have, otherwise movement would not have been allowed). The way you explain it seems that the knights turn should end when he has no (potential or actual) ENCOUNTERS left, regardless of movement.

See below
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Benji68 wrote:
Woelf wrote:

That end of turn trigger isn't meant to be ultra strict. As long as you still have cubes available to assign you can use them to finish up your turn. If you're out of both movement and encounters but have one cube left, you can still assign it to something, but you can't keep running around if you're out of encounters.


But that is quite different from what the rules say. According to the rules, if i use up my last movement point to enter a dark tile, i can't use a last encounter point (which i must still have, otherwise movement would not have been allowed). The way you explain it seems that the knights turn should end when he has no (potential or actual) ENCOUNTERS left, regardless of movement.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

If you have 1 movement and 1 encounter left, and you use that movement to enter a dark tile, you still get to use that encounter to reveal and resolve the tile before ending your turn.

Encounters are what drive the Knight's turns. It's designed so that you'll almost always end a turn by taking an encounter, either by revealing a new dark tile or by attacking another player (sometimes both at once). Movement is just what gets you to that next encounter.

If you're out of encounters you have to stop because you can't move anywhere or do anything that could potentially trigger another encounter that you don't have. If you're out of movement, you won't be able to reach anywhere else that would require an encounter, no matter how many you have left.

It goes back to cube management. As long as you're only placing the cubes as you need them rather than placing them all from the start, you'll be able keep your remaining movement and encounters balanced enough that you'll almost always end your turn by using your last movement and last encounter at the same time. If you still have a cube remaining at that point, but can't raise both movement and encounters enough to keep going, you can put it into strength or shield or something to provide extra defense against other players. In solo, you sometimes have to accept that a cube went unused and move on to your next turn.
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Woelf wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
Woelf wrote:

That end of turn trigger isn't meant to be ultra strict. As long as you still have cubes available to assign you can use them to finish up your turn. If you're out of both movement and encounters but have one cube left, you can still assign it to something, but you can't keep running around if you're out of encounters.


But that is quite different from what the rules say. According to the rules, if i use up my last movement point to enter a dark tile, i can't use a last encounter point (which i must still have, otherwise movement would not have been allowed). The way you explain it seems that the knights turn should end when he has no (potential or actual) ENCOUNTERS left, regardless of movement.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

If you have 1 movement and 1 encounter left, and you use that movement to enter a dark tile, you still get to use that encounter to reveal and resolve the tile before ending your turn.

Encounters are what drive the Knight's turns. It's designed so that you'll almost always end a turn by taking an encounter, either by revealing a new dark tile or by attacking another player (sometimes both at once). Movement is just what gets you to that next encounter.

If you're out of encounters you have to stop because you can't move anywhere or do anything that could potentially trigger another encounter that you don't have. If you're out of movement, you won't be able to reach anywhere else that would require an encounter, no matter how many you have left.

It goes back to cube management. As long as you're only placing the cubes as you need them rather than placing them all from the start, you'll be able keep your remaining movement and encounters balanced enough that you'll almost always end your turn by using your last movement and last encounter at the same time. If you still have a cube remaining at that point, but can't raise both movement and encounters enough to keep going, you can put it into strength or shield or something to provide extra defense against other players. In solo, you sometimes have to accept that a cube went unused and move on to your next turn.


I guess the debate comes down to if you have a single cube left and all prior points spent, what's the issues you can hit with assigning to movement and heading off 2 further spaces on lit empty tiles.

There would be no point in assigning a final cube to perception as you can't move anywhere for this to take affect.

Based on the notes above with the ruling being not quite as strict as immediately ending a turn, you can use the last cube for non-encounter stuff like bow, strength & shield. This seems easy to handle. But why then penalise the knight from running 2 spaces away along a known path?
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Woelf wrote:
Benji68 wrote:


But that is quite different from what the rules say. According to the rules, if i use up my last movement point to enter a dark tile, i can't use a last encounter point (which i must still have, otherwise movement would not have been allowed). The way you explain it seems that the knights turn should end when he has no (potential or actual) ENCOUNTERS left, regardless of movement.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

If you have 1 movement and 1 encounter left, and you use that movement to enter a dark tile, you still get to use that encounter to reveal and resolve the tile before ending your turn.


The rules say that the turn ends when the night runs out of movement OR encounters. Hence, using the last move should end the turn immediately.
That is why i am suspecting that the ruls should say that the turn ends after using the last encounter instead.

Woelf wrote:
Encounters are what drive the Knight's turns. It's designed so that you'll almost always end a turn by taking an encounter, either by revealing a new dark tile or by attacking another player (sometimes both at once). Movement is just what gets you to that next encounter.


Yes, but under the current rules, if that was the last movement point, your turn is over.
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Benji68 wrote:
Yes, but under the current rules, if that was the last movement point, your turn is over.

If I finish an encounter with 1 movement point and 0 encounters, theoretically I could move back one lit tile, but...

Quote:
I can't recall the specifics, but there were some issues that came up way back in testing when movement was still allowed after running out of encounters, so that's why it's disallowed now.

Sounds reasonable to me. Thus, using my last encounter point ends my turn.

Now...

If I finish an encounter with 1 encounter point and 0 movement, my turn is unquestionably over because I can't get to another tile to have another encounter. To have an encounter requires a movement point to get there and an encounter point to do something once you get there.

I think your confusion comes from misunderstanding the timing of the Knight. Moving into a tile, flipping it over, adding new dark tiles as necessary, and resolving all the encounters on that tile... that's all one thing. Like a package. It takes both a movement point and an encounter point.

The only time you'd use just movement points is moving over lit tiles, which can only happen while you still have at least one encounter point left in hand.

If the Knight is standing next to a dark tile and she want to go there she'll need a movement point and an encounter point.

If the Knight instead wants to go to that dark tile just past those two light tiles, she'd need 3 movement points and 1 encounter point.

As an aside, when things in this game need to happen in a specific, discrete order, they seem to be described in a numbered list. Like, the Dragon moves and plays cards and when that's all finished only then can pick up treasure.
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Benji68 wrote:
The rules say that the turn ends when the night runs out of movement OR encounters. Hence, using the last move should end the turn immediately.
That is why i am suspecting that the ruls should say that the turn ends after using the last encounter instead.
I think you're taking it a little bit too literally.

Here's what the rule says:
Quote:
Your turn ends when you run out of Encounters or Movement. If you run out of Encounters first, you cannot use any more Movement.


It doesn't say that it ends immediately or at the precise moment that you use your last movement point.

If/when you spend your last movement to enter a Dark tile, you still need to resolve that tile. You can't move into it, claim your turn is over instead of resolving the tile, and then sit there in the dark until your next turn.


The reason it lists running out of encounters and running out of movement as potential triggers for ending the turn is because it's possible to run out of movement but still have encounters remaining. If running out of encounters was the only way to end the turn, and you read into that too literally, your turn would never end because you'd never be able to spend that last encounter.
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Hobbess wrote:
But why then penalise the knight from running 2 spaces away along a known path?

kc2dpt wrote:
Quote:
I can't recall the specifics, but there were some issues that came up way back in testing when movement was still allowed after running out of encounters, so that's why it's disallowed now.

Sounds reasonable to me. Thus, using my last encounter point ends my turn.

As mentioned earlier I don't remember specifically what prompted it, but one possibility that does come to mind is that it would allow for a very "gamey" situation where the Knight player could use her one encounter to attack another player, then dump all of her remaining cubes into movement to run to the far side of the map.

That causes problems with other characters like the Thief or Dragon who rely on having the ability to fight back but can't match the Knight for possible movement distance. It's also a problem for Goblins if she can take a cheap shot and then run to a safe corner that they can't reach without burning off most of their population through lit tiles.



Regardless of the reasons, if you and your group want to try playing it so that the Knight can keep moving even after running out of encounters by all means try it. We're not going to stop you.
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I see - thanks for the clarification. It may be a language issue.

But still, the way you explain it, running out of encounters is the only MANDATORY condition that ends a turn after that last encounter (without any further moves allowed, even if there are movement points left).

Otherwise it is self-evident that a turn may be ended before running out of encounters, for instance when there are no more moves possible and there is nothing else to do on that last (lit) tile.

Would this be correct?

Part of my confusion may also stem from the fact that the rules never mention that a dark tile NEEDS to be revealed and resolved in the same turn the knight reached it.

But anyway - i am sure it will all make sense once the game is here
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Woelf wrote:
Regardless of the reasons, if you and your group want to try playing it so that the Knight can keep moving even after running out of encounters by all means try it. We're not going to stop you.


Will be keen to monitor, as always as long as everyone is clear prior to starting then shouldn't cause any issues.

As a smidge of a follow-up. On the lone cube discussion. Spending the 1 cube on strength vs shield vs movement all seem like similar weighted decision options, either I beef up to scare, I defend or run away a little.

Where the grey issue might come is if you have 2 or more cubes left and suddenly decide to sprint across the map, spending all on movement. Thus your encounters didn't increase, so you should be ending your turn
 
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Benji68 wrote:
I see - thanks for the clarification. It may be a language issue.

But still, the way you explain it, running out of encounters is the only MANDATORY condition that ends a turn after that last encounter (without any further moves allowed, even if there are movement points left).

Otherwise it is self-evident that a turn may be ended before running out of encounters, for instance when there are no more moves possible and there is nothing else to do on that last (lit) tile.

Would this be correct?
Yes, you've got it. thumbsup

You always have the option to end your turn early even if you still have movement and encounters remaining. Running out of movement simply forces that situation because you can no longer go anywhere to use your remaining encounter(s).

Quote:
Part of my confusion may also stem from the fact that the rules never mention that a dark tile NEEDS to be revealed and resolved in the same turn the knight reached it.
We'll have to look into clarifying that a little more in a future printings, but yes, the intention is that the Knight must always reveal and resolve dark tiles when she first enters them.
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Thanks for all the replies. The system remains very odd to me in that I have to spend movement and encounter to flip a tile. I'm not sure yet how I could spend an encounter point without spending movement - it seems impossible since only 1 encounter point is needed to resolve an entire tile. But I do see where I might spend movement without encounter points - to move through lit tiles.

And what is the occasion when playing solo where I would move into a lit tile and spend an encounter point? It can't think of any since again you generally have to (?) resolve a tile when you flip it.

If I'm not playing solo, I believe other players can enter into a previously 'cleaned out' lit tile (and I'm suggesting that *every* flipped tile will be cleaned out when it is flipped, right?) and add to the tile or otherwise require a Knight to enter and spend an encounter point.
 
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adamw wrote:
I'm not sure yet how I could spend an encounter point without spending movement - it seems impossible

I think it is impossible. But you could spend a movement point without spending an encounter point.

Quote:
what is the occasion when playing solo where I would move into a lit tile and spend an encounter point?

I'm not sure there is an occasion in the solo game. Other players can sometimes flip tiles, which might result in them getting an encounter token of some kind. For example, the Dragon can reveal a tile with flame. If that tile has an event icon, you put an event token on it to show the event hasn't been resolved yet.
 
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adamw wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. The system remains very odd to me in that I have to spend movement and encounter to flip a tile. I'm not sure yet how I could spend an encounter point without spending movement - it seems impossible since only 1 encounter point is needed to resolve an entire tile. But I do see where I might spend movement without encounter points - to move through lit tiles.
You do need to spend cubes on both movement and encounters, but because each cube you add to perception gives you two extra movement while perception adds only one encounter, there's not a 1:1 cube cost between them. Throw in some of the treasures that give you bonuses to more than one stat at once and there's a lot of nuance in how you spend your cubes. Some turns you'll want a lot of encounters but not as much movement, other turns you'll want to cover a lot of distance by only need one or two encounters.

In a non-solo game, if the Dragon is awake AND on the surface, you can spend multiple Encounters to attack it multiple times without needing to move away in between.

Quote:
And what is the occasion when playing solo where I would move into a lit tile and spend an encounter point? It can't think of any since again you generally have to (?) resolve a tile when you flip it.
Sometimes when you reveal a crystal you don't have enough strength to smash it immediately, so you might leave it so you can come back to it later. When you return, even if it's just the next turn and you haven't moved away yet, it costs an encounter to smash.

The Vantage Point event reveals all of the dark tiles around you, which can open up crystals, treasures, and/or event tokens, all of which would require an encounter to resolve.

Quote:
If I'm not playing solo, I believe other players can enter into a previously 'cleaned out' lit tile (and I'm suggesting that *every* flipped tile will be cleaned out when it is flipped, right?) and add to the tile or otherwise require a Knight to enter and spend an encounter point.
Attacking another player will always cost the Knight an encounter whether it's on a lit tile or a dark one. Plus, any events, treasures or crystals revealed by them (Flame/Scorch/Burn/Flare) will remain on the map until someone resolves them.
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Woelf wrote:
Sometimes when you reveal a crystal you don't have enough strength to smash it immediately, so you might leave it so you can come back to it later. When you return, even if it's just the next turn and you haven't moved away yet, it costs an encounter to smash.

The Vantage Point event reveals all of the dark tiles around you, which can open up crystals, treasures, and/or event tokens, all of which would require an encounter to resolve.


Which I also still could do even if just run out of movement, right?

Sounds to me like the rules could be simplified/clarified to "The Knight can only move if she has at least one encounter left."
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ipreuss wrote:
Woelf wrote:
Sometimes when you reveal a crystal you don't have enough strength to smash it immediately, so you might leave it so you can come back to it later. When you return, even if it's just the next turn and you haven't moved away yet, it costs an encounter to smash.

The Vantage Point event reveals all of the dark tiles around you, which can open up crystals, treasures, and/or event tokens, all of which would require an encounter to resolve.


Which I also still could do even if just run out of movement, right?

Sounds to me like the rules could be simplified/clarified to "The Knight can only move if she has at least one encounter left."


Correct. Having no movement or encounters left has nothing to do with ending the turn, that is why i misunderstood it - the sentence does not make any sense where it is.
The knights turn ends when he has no actions (of any kind) left or when he decides to end it early. The sentence about needing at least one (potential) encounter in reserve to be allowed to move belongs in the movement section of the rules (along with the requirement to reveal dark tiles), not in the end of turn section.
 
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Benji68 wrote:
Correct. Having no movement or encounters left has nothing to do with ending the turn...


Once the knight has no encounters left, what can she do?
 
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stoneleaf wrote:
Benji68 wrote:
Correct. Having no movement or encounters left has nothing to do with ending the turn...


Once the knight has no encounters left, what can she do?


I don't know. There might be cards in an expansion that might still be played? Should cube in reserve really be counted as "potential" encounters, or would it be cleaner if you could have no actual encounter points left and then assign another cube to get more encounters?

Yes, once you have REALLY no encounters left, you are out of actions anyway and have to end your turn. That is the same in any other game and does not need to be explained further. What is important here is the connection between encounters and movements, and this belongs in the movement section.
 
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