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Subject: On the use of Deathwatch Teams in Space-Hulk rss

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MintyTheCat Cat
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Hello all,

I have spent some time reading the DW books and have just begun to read some of the RPGs and it got me thinking: "what about using DW teams for Space-Hulk?".

Does this make thematic sense do you feel? Also, what sort of rule modifications and advantages would you give the DW teams? There are meant to be better than standard marines from say a Tactical squad but you then need to make them not too strong otherwise they would not be well balanced.

I run games with marines in standard Power-Armour too and thought that the DW could be in PA or to get some Terminators in.

Does anyone have any ideas and comments on this?

Cheers.
 
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Mark
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Thematically, Space Hulk represents a major campaign of a company of Terminators (or more) assaulting a kilometers-long conglomeration of Imperial and alien space vessels, infested by thousands of Xenos monsters. Grand, great stuff. The stuff of legends.

Practically, a Space Hulk game is a squad or two vs 30 or so Genestealers. A campaign is a few such games strung together. So, it is is not directly dependent on what is represents. A few Deathwatch squads is as viable practically as a company of Terminators.

If Deathwatch had existed WAAAY back when, when the Space Hulk was designed, it could have easily been a game about a few Deathwatch squads infiltrating a Space Hulk to plant toxin canisters, eliminate a Broodlord (assuming they were around then), or other heroic against-all-odds missions. And, it still could in the actual game setting. I mean, DW is really The Dirty Dozen, right?

The essence of the Deathwatch: Overkill game is the Space Marines are very elite, and very specialized. Each excels at an aspect of Xenos bust'n. I would try to maintain that element. Each figure is unique, so should be their individual stats and rules (within reason). Deathwatch: Overkill would be great place to start. I've only seen recaps of the new 40K Deathwatch stuff, but there is something to build on, there.

So, heck yes!
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MintyTheCat Cat
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ZombieMark wrote:
Thematically, Space Hulk represents a major campaign of a company of Terminators (or more) assaulting a kilometers-long conglomeration of Imperial and alien space vessels, infested by thousands of Xenos monsters. Grand, great stuff. The stuff of legends.

Practically, a Space Hulk game is a squad or two vs 30 or so Genestealers. A campaign is a few such games strung together. So, what it is is not dependent directly on what is represents. A few Deathwatch squads is as viable practically as a company of Terminators.

Yes, I edge towards using Terminators and for the most part the action taking place on a Hulk. However, SH is not restricted to taking place just on a Hulk as per many of the additional missions over the years and indeed Deathwing taking place on a planet.

Since the time of the SH Campaigns book and then the SH Bible the rules for other teams and indeed marines in power-armour have been put forward. To make it interesting we often like to propose teams based on points and indeed for varying levels of experience and ability to offer weaker players essentially more points to buy stronger characters. It may be that a group of PA marines and say a Dreadnought would be interesting for a mission to play for some and then a different combination for others. I tend to play missions using the alloted teams as standard but it can be fun to replay missions using a different set up for teams too.

ZombieMark wrote:

If Deathwatch had existed WAAAY back when, when the Space Hulk was designed, it could have easily been a game about a few Deathwatch squads infiltrating a Space Hulk to plant toxin canisters, eliminate a Broodlord (assuming they were around then), or other heroic against-all-odds missions. And, it still could in the actual game setting. I mean, DW is really The Dirty Dozen, right?

Yes, you can imagine all sorts of 'behind the scenes' type SAS on steroids activity and it makes for some good ideas for campaigns

ZombieMark wrote:

The essence of the Deathwatch: Overkill game is the Space Marines are very elite, and very specialized. Each excels at an aspect of Xenos bust'n. I would try to maintain that element. Each figure is unique, so should be their individual stats and rules (within reason). Deathwatch: Overkill would be great place to start. I've only seen recaps of the new 40K Deathwatch stuff, but there is something to build on, there.

So, heck yes!

I only own the tiles and rules and dice and such for DW: Overkill but to me it looks to be a bit thin on the ground and I would prefer to play SH any day. Also, and this might upset some but some of the characters to me seem a bit silly such as that guy on the bike with the eagle and harkens back too much to Space Crusade for me with its over the top team of heroes.

I would prefer to work out something more suitable for SH but using DW. There must be something that marks them out and gives them an advantage. Would it be that they automatically get a parry on melee or that they add a point or two on melee that standard PA marines would not get?

Those sort of ideas are floating about at present in mind but have you got any other ideas to make them different enough to play with but not make them laughably over powered that you feel sorry for the GS player?

Cheers.
 
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Mark
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Damn my typos! I hate it when enthusiasm overtakes editing.

To be clear, I'm not advocating DW:OK over Space Hulk (though, I do think it is a good game). Just saying it could be a good reference point, if one wanted to lean in that direction (special rules, special stats). And, yes, I was going to put in a caveat about using bikes in Space Hulk, but I forgot. Ditto jump packs. Have to admit, there is some humor to be found there.

Oh, and strictly as a Public Service Announcement, GW is now selling DW:OK marines separately.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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I have a couple of the DW Terminators from DW: O/K myself buy actually got them to add to my Blood-Angels - I wanted to have a really stupidly powerful Terminator who had the power glove weapon and then some heavies for the fun of it.

I am finding lots of ideas looking at the RPGs for DW and the books written; I have read a couple of the DW books too.

I will think up on it some more but like all things you have to fine-tune it to make it work

Cheers, Mark.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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Hi all,

just thinking a little more on this:

Surely if a marine was up to the standard of joining Deathwatch then he must be at least able to become a Sargeant.

Given that a Sargeant armed with a power sword gets the option to parry (re-roll your highest dice on the attacker's side) and he gets a +1 on melee then would it be too far to allow a DW marine to get the same skills and abilities as a Sargeant?

Would there be any other abilities that you would confer to a DW marine?
I don't want to make them too powerful but they have to have something better than a standard marine otherwise they would not have been sent to DW

Any ideas let me know.

Cheers.
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Mark
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This Bell of Lost Souls article has a video of two GW designers discussing the Deathwatch 40K Codex. Gives a fair amount of insight. Might be of use to this discussion.
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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ZombieMark wrote:
This Bell of Lost Souls article has a video of two GW designers discussing the Deathwatch 40K Codex. Gives a fair amount of insight. Might be of use to this discussion.


Thanks for that, Mark. Yes, the DW are highly flexible.

I spent some time putting together a spreadsheet last night.
Using the budgeting points system whereby a standard squad of five Termminators would be ten point : 1 Sargeant, 1 Heavy, 3 standard Terminators with Heavy-Bolters for the points: 2,5,3x1 = 10 points.

From this I then gave each DW member a Sword as a hand weapon and gave them the ability to parry (as a Sargeant has) and each has a +1 on close-combat with the Captain/Sargeant getting a +2,+3.
Standard Power-Armour marines would be: Sargeant, Special, Heavy, 7 standard with Bolters for the points: 1, 1, 4.5,7x0.5 = 10 points.

To kill a Terminator is still a 6.
To kill a Power-Armour Marine is still a 5 due to their armour being not as strong.

The points I assigned to each DW member are as:


Member Point cost

Captain Power Armour 3
Captain Terminator Armour 5.5
Sargeant Power Armour 1.5
Sargeant Terminator Armour 2.5
Terminator Heavy weapon 5.5
Terminator Standard Heavy-Bolter 1.5
Standard Power Armour 1
Power Armour Heavy 3
Special Power Armour 1.5


So adding 1/2 to each DW members' cost.

I haven't thought about what type of bombs and grenades to give them as yet and how many and what cost to make them.

I really like the Infernus weapon.

I then worked out some team options sticking as close to ten points as I could:

Option 3

Member Count
Sargeant Power Armour 1
Terminator Heavy weapon 1
Terminator Standard Heavy-Bolter 2

Total Points 10
Squad Size 4


Option 5

Member Count
Sargeant Terminator Armour 1
Standard Power Armour 6
Special Power Armour 1

Total Points 10
Squad Size 8


Option 6

Member Count
Sargeant Power Armour 1
Power Armour Heavy 2
Terminator Standard Heavy-Bolter 1

Total Points 10.5
Squad Size 4



Option 8

Member Count
Sargeant Power Armour 1
Power Armour Heavy 1
Special Power Armour 1
Standard Power Armour 4

Total Points 10
Squad Size 7


Due to the point balances there are a variety of possible team sizes - not 5 Terminators or 10 marines in Power-Armour.
It is possible to form a team that is quite varied and fits the situation and mission better and more so than with a standard squad of Terminators or an Assault/Devastator squad of marines in Power-Armour - I quite like that aspect as it lends itself more fully to the 'covert operations' notion.
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MintyTheCat wrote:

To kill a Terminator is still a 6.
To kill a Power-Armour Marine is still a 5 due to their armour being not as strong.

Could you clarify this? Those values are for getting shot at, not close combat. Genestealers don't shoot. What would be close combat base numbers for DW Power Armor Marines? Before bonuses?
 
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MintyTheCat Cat
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ZombieMark wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote:

To kill a Terminator is still a 6.
To kill a Power-Armour Marine is still a 5 due to their armour being not as strong.

Could you clarify this? Those values are for getting shot at, not close combat. Genestealers don't shoot. What would be close combat base numbers for DW Power Armor Marines? Before bonuses?


Firstly: we play games that have not only Genestealers such as using a cult of Chaos-Cultists and then several other tyranid members and some of them can shoot. I would love to have some Chaos Terminators one day too for some turning of the tables.

Close-Combat is based on who wins the rolls of the dice; for a GS it is 3D6 versus 1D6 for a Terminator and a 1D6 +1 for a Sargeant.
Power-Armour Marines get a 1D6 -2 for a standard Marine and a -1 for a Sargeant.

So for DW, given that they all have a hand weapon and they get the parry for free I have put them all down for standard DW Marines in Power-Armour at close-combat 1D6 +1 with a parry with the Sargeant having a 1D6 +2. DW Terminators have a hand-weapon too and they get a +1 with Sargeants getting a +2.

DW Terminator and Power-Armour are no stronger than those of other Chapters so they get killed on 1D6 6 for Terminators and 1D6 (6-2)= 4+ for PA Marines.

Does that make good sense?
 
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