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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: CoH:AtB vs. LnL:HoN rss

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MICHAEL MCGUIRE
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Which game is better and why? Please help me to purchase my first 2 player game. I'm interested in both Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! and Lock 'n Load: Heroes of Normandy. Has anyone played both and what is your preference and why?
Thank you so much for your help.
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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CommanderMcG wrote:
Which game is better and why? Please help me to purchase my first 2 player game. I'm interested in both Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! and Lock 'n Load: Heroes of Normandy. Has anyone played both and what is your preference and why?
Thank you so much for your help.


I've played both and to my preference CoH wins. LnL is a good system, but a lot more rules heavy.

Look forward to other comments. You can find my review of LnL in the Heroes of Normandy reviews section.
 
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fightcitymayor
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klkitchens wrote:
LnL is a good system, but a lot more rules heavy.
I don't disagree.

Lock 'n Load Tactical: Heroes of Normandy has a huge scenario book, and a fairly meaty rulebook, so you definitely get your money's worth. And I give LnL credit for creating some really great walk-throughs (free to download from their website) and once you get the system down then you are 80% of the way to knowing how to play any of their games within that time-frame. But it does take some dedication to nail down all of the moving parts.

Ultimately I think LnL is a deeper, richer experience, but it comes at the cost of spending some time with the rules.
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Russ Williams
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It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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russ wrote:
It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.


COMING SOON to LNL too
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Russ Williams
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klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.


COMING SOON to LNL too

Yes, but considering how many years it was "coming soon" to CoH, I think I'd choose the one which is (finally) available instead of the one which is "coming soon"...
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fightcitymayor
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russ wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.
COMING SOON to LNL too
Yes, but considering how many years it was "coming soon" to CoH, I think I'd choose the one which is (finally) available instead of the one which is "coming soon"...
Your point is well taken.
Although I would hope the 'heavy lifting' has already been done for the solo system, and all that remains is to port it over to whatever hex-&-counter wargame chooses to license it.
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Jon Pessano
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fightcitymayor wrote:
russ wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.
COMING SOON to LNL too
Yes, but considering how many years it was "coming soon" to CoH, I think I'd choose the one which is (finally) available instead of the one which is "coming soon"...
Your point is well taken.
Although I would hope the 'heavy lifting' has already been done for the solo system, and all that remains is to port it over to whatever hex-&-counter wargame chooses to license it.


Don't forget that CoH has a firefight generator as well. Don't know anything about LnL though so they might as well.

Thx
jonpfl
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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jonpfl wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
russ wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
It is also worth noting the existence of the solitaire expansion Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion, certainly a big plus for CoH:AtB for many people.
COMING SOON to LNL too
Yes, but considering how many years it was "coming soon" to CoH, I think I'd choose the one which is (finally) available instead of the one which is "coming soon"...
Your point is well taken.
Although I would hope the 'heavy lifting' has already been done for the solo system, and all that remains is to port it over to whatever hex-&-counter wargame chooses to license it.


Don't forget that CoH has a firefight generator as well. Don't know anything about LnL though so they might as well.

Thx
jonpfl


They do...

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MICHAEL MCGUIRE
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Thanks for all the great replies. I really enjoy reading the rule books and figuring out how to play games. LnL seems great, I love the idea of a solo expansion, but it sounds lik CoH is the way to go. I downloaded and printed out LnL WWII Era Demo and will see how it plays. Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming.
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Herb Boutilier
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If you use Vassal at all, note that there is no CoH vassal module for Awakening the Bear 2nd ed. (only 1st ed. in which the counters are different) LnL Heroes of Normandy had a vassal mod up and running within a month of its release and has continued to release improvements to it.(thank you Vance). For me, LnL provides better customer support as David Heath has been responsive to any customer support tickets I've submitted. Both are good systems, but LnL gets the nod for me as the games seem to flow quicker and better. I'm anxiously awaiting LnL's Solo version.
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Barry Miller
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I'd submit that a third title might be considered in this conversation: The 'Band of Brothers' system of tactical level games. See (below for a few links).

I finally bought CoH:AtB and the Eastern Front Solo expansion for all the great reasons mentioned here and many other places. BUT I also just backed another tactical wargame system that many experienced players say is better the CoH. It's 'Band of Brothers'.
Two of the games in the series are: Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles, and Band of Brothers: Texas Arrows. (They were updated and are being republished through a recent Kickstarter).

So anyway, before I decided to back Band of Brothers knowing that I was already planning on buy CoH, I asked around and it seems that at least several players prefer the Band of Brothers system better than CoH, mostly in the way that it achieves high realism with low rules overhead. Here are two comparison threads (one being where I asked the question):
Fill a niche that Conflict of Heroes and Tide of Iron don't?
And,
Comparing BoB to Combat Commander and Conflict of Heroes

Also, the BoB designer said he's working on a solo system that will employ an AI able to smartly play any of the normal 2-player scenarios against a solo player. (At least thats how I took it).

Bottom Line: I bought CoH, because, well, it's Conflict of Heroes! But I also backed the new Band of Brothers Kicksatrter because of all the favorable comparisons, and because both have a place on your shelf. Thusly when comparing CoH to LnL (which I know nothing about), you might want to also consider Band of Brothers.


 
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Øivind Karlsrud
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Games I want to play on VASSAL: ASL, ASLSK, GMT CDG's I own
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Like Dirty Harry says, opinions are like a**holes (everybody's got one), so here is mine. To me, Conflict of Heroes is the most boring of all the squad level systems. I hate the constant switching back-and-forth: You move one hex, I move one hex. There is no downtime, but come on. Let me at least complete movement for one stack before it's your turn. CoH is too disruptive. Lock'n Load is better, because it let's you activate a stack, and complete movement with that. Sometimes you are interrupted because of opportunity fire, but you're not interrupted all the time, each and every hex you move. Also, I think CoH feels too abstract, with the action point system, and especially the command action points, instead of leader counters like many others systems (including LnL) uses. I prefer leader counters. They create a more interesting narrative for me. LnL also has better rules for vehicles. CoH is very elegant in that it treats tanks like infantry, only with blue defensive rating, but in the end, tanks are not like infantry. I want tanks to feel different, and to do things differently. Other things I like better in LnL: separate counters for support weapons, counters for personnel like medics and snipers, the spotting mechanism which means you can't fire at unit which are not spotted, and many other things. All in all, LnL creates a better story by having a more detailed, less abstracted system. Conflict of Heroes is certainly the most elegant system, but I don't find it as fun as other systems, including LnL.

If you want a squad level game that is not too complex, ASL starter kit is my first choice, and Band of Brothers would probably be my second choice, just to throw two other alternatives in there. And many people like Combat Commander, of course (I don't). But of the two you mention, I would choose Lock'n Load, for the reasons I mentioned above.
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Paul Farrell
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I'll just throw another game into the mix. Old School Tactical also covers the same scale and time frame as the other games already mentioned. I own ATB, BOB and OST. I have played ATB the most as it was the first of the three that I purchased. In my experience ATB requires the most thought to get a win. BOB really makes you focus on having your troops keep their heads down (something I think I would be doing if I were ever in a real combat situation) and OST is a crazy riot to play and has almost a cinematic feel to it. I have been trying to play all three games with a similar scenario to get different flavours of what an actual firefight would have been like (without putting myself in the line of fire). Any one of these games would be an excellent choice. If you can, you should buy them all. You won't regret it.
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Barry Miller
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Never2manygames wrote:
If you can, you should buy them all.

And, this is where our first-world problem shines brightest!

What if (for whatever reason), you have to choose only two of the three titles? Which two?

(BTW, I'm not really asking, as there is no correct answer. But that is the question, isn't it? I mean, if you were to get only two).

For instance, my personal situation, FWIW, is that I already own COH and just backed the recent BOB Kickstarter. I wasn't aware of the new OST Kickstarter (nor of the original game, for that matter). So considering that I already have COH and BOB in my collection, prudence dictates that I pass on OST. Got to draw the line somewhere. I guess it's a matter of timing as to which side of the line that both BOB and OST fell!



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Kevin L. Kitchens
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bgm1961 wrote:

Never2manygames wrote:
If you can, you should buy them all.

And, this is where our first-world problem shines brightest!

What if (for whatever reason), you have to choose only two of the three titles? Which two?

(BTW, I'm not really asking, as there is no correct answer. But that is the question, isn't it? I mean, if you were to get only two).

For instance, my personal situation, FWIW, is that I already own COH and just backed the recent BOB Kickstarter. I wasn't aware of the new OST Kickstarter (nor of the original game, for that matter). So considering that I already have COH and BOB in my collection, prudence dictates that I pass on OST. Got to draw the line somewhere. I guess it's a matter of timing as to which side of the line that both BOB and OST fell!


About 18 months ago, I thought I had too many WW2 tactical games, so I was going to downsize them and keep Combat Commander: Europe (and all expansions).

Since then:

Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition)
Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion
Conflict of Heroes: Guadalcanal – The Pacific 1942
Conflict of Heroes: Price of Honour – Poland 1939
Conflict of Heroes: Storms of Steel! – Kursk 1943
Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles
Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer
Band of Brothers: Texas Arrows
Tide of Iron
Tide of Iron: Normandy
Lock 'n Load Tactical: Heroes of Normandy
Lock 'n Load Tactical: Heroes of the Pacific
Old School Tactical
Memoir '44
Airfix Battles
Fields of Fire

and several battle specific titles...

I did manage to not get hooked on Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1 crack and traded that one off...

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Eric Teoro
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Barry, I am in a similar boat. I keep looking at OST. Though I am not a Vietnam War player, I have kicked myself multiple times for not backing '65 (same designer). I found out about that during the last few minutes of the KS; before I knew it, time ran out. Now, it is too costly for me to jump in. I hope the same won't be true of OST. But, similar to you, I have other WWII tactical systems, so I am juggling between expanding them or this new offering.

As for the OP, I find the two systems different enough to enjoy them both. I might lean toward CoH because if I play with my gaming Buddy, I think it is the most appealing of the WWII tactical systems because of the back-and-forth gameplay. I grew up - aged - playing wargames. I am used to one side doing everything while the other side waits, and then repeating. When I saw CoH demoed at Origins, I immediately thought this is a game I could play with my Buddy. Now that he is playing wargames, other systems are more accessible, but CoH is great for teaching newbies, especially newbies with ADD. It's also beautiful from a component standpoint.
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Barry Miller
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klkitchens wrote:

Thanks for reminding me! I also have those games as well! (Tide of Iron w/ 2 expansions, and M '44). But they're in "deep storage" while I'm temporarily living an in apartment. So I forgot about them.

But yeah, when I add those to my list... all the more (unfortunate but prudent) reason to pass on OST.

In the meantime, I just ordered the Firefight Generator for COH. I hope they come out with a western front expansion... and boards with snow! (Which is appealing for OST, BTW).

 
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