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Subject: Question on Haven In Flames Final Mission rss

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Paul Sousa
United States
Pembroke
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My friends and I played Haven in Flames last night and we weren't exactly sure how the final mission should be played in terms of summoning the Avatar and Controller.

Both the Avatar and Controller were summoned when we moved to the final mission, so that piece was fine. The heroes managed to destroy the Avatar before the end of the round, but not the Controller. Should the Mission Progress have moved to the '1' space when the Avatar was destroyed, and then the Sins player could summon the Avatar again at the end of the round?

I don't see anything that disallows the Sin player from summoning an Avatar or Controller in general, and the mission doesn't specifically state they can't, so the way I interpret the mission is once you destroy either one of them you move the Mission Progress to '1', but the Sin player can bring them back at the end of the round. Once the heroes kill the other the Mission Progress moves to '2' and is completed. Does that make sense?
 
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Jason Clubb
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My thought would be that once the avatar is destroyed, it does not come back in this mission as it was an objective. I would think the controller would be the same way.
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Paul Glickman
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MetalChef wrote:
My thought would be that once the avatar is destroyed, it does not come back in this mission as it was an objective. I would think the controller would be the same way.


This is almost certainly not true as there are many other missions that prevent re spawning after an objective kill. This one does not, so you can keep summoning them.

Unless it does. I haven't received my copy yet and so it'd be a lot of trouble to check myself.
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Paul Sousa
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MetalChef wrote:
My thought would be that once the avatar is destroyed, it does not come back in this mission as it was an objective. I would think the controller would be the same way.


That's what we initially were thinking, but because we killed the Avatar the Controller was a piece of cake by himself and it felt very anticlimactic. Looking over the rules and other missions it does seem they spell out any times there are exceptions to the standard rules, so that's when I felt the Avatar and Controller should be able to be spawned back after being destroyed.
 
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Jason Clubb
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psousa781 wrote:
MetalChef wrote:
My thought would be that once the avatar is destroyed, it does not come back in this mission as it was an objective. I would think the controller would be the same way.


That's what we initially were thinking, but because we killed the Avatar the Controller was a piece of cake by himself and it felt very anticlimactic. Looking over the rules and other missions it does seem they spell out any times there are exceptions to the standard rules, so that's when I felt the Avatar and Controller should be able to be spawned back after being destroyed.

I read through all the story boards and I agree with your and the previous posters assessment. There is no can't resummon in the mission, as some stories have, so as long as both monsters are destroyed by the players once, they succeed it appears.

Chances are, this will not be the only rule clarification question in the weeks to come!
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Paul Sousa
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MetalChef wrote:
Chances are, this will not be the only rule clarification question in the weeks to come!


There were a number of things we had to talk ourselves through rules wise. We ended up realizing the rules are pretty simply laid out (in a good way), and will state when there are exceptions.

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CK Lai
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Pg. 20 of the rules states "Any task accomplished only counts towards the current mission". So if you managed to kill the avatar and the controller before the final mission starts (like I did), you need to summon them again.

So for Haven in Flames the missions are:

#1 : destroy "x" monster in same round

#2a : End "x" turns in monster-free districts OR
#2b : Remove "x" fire tokens

(Once accomplished, summon Avatar)

#3 : Destroy 1 altar

#4 : Destroy Avatar and Controller
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Paul Sousa
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Chinkster wrote:
Pg. 20 of the rules states "Any task accomplished only counts towards the current mission". So if you managed to kill the avatar and the controller before the final mission starts (like I did), you need to summon them again.

So for Haven in Flames the missions are:

#1 : destroy "x" monster in same round

#2a : End "x" turns in monster-free districts OR
#2b : Remove "x" fire tokens

(Once accomplished, summon Avatar)

#3 : Destroy 1 altar

#4 : Destroy Avatar and Controller


Yeah, that part we got right. Basically at the start of a round we accomplished Mission 3 (destroy 1 altar). The Avatar and Controller were already on the board at that point so we moved onto Mission 4. We killed the Aavatar at the end of the round, but when the Sin player summoned monsters during the End of Round phase he didn't summon the Avatar again thinking it was a "Destroy and Done" because of the mission objective. Afterward we thought about it, and Mission 4 doesn't state the Avatar and Controller can't be summoned again, so I believe we should have moved the Mission Progress to a '1' when we destroyed the Avatar, the Sin player could have summoned the Avatar after that round ended, and then we would have had to focus on destroying the Controller to complete the mission. Not allowing the Sin player to summon the Avatar made it very easy to take out the Controller.
 
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CK Lai
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psousa781 wrote:
Yeah, that part we got right. Basically at the start of a round we accomplished Mission 3 (destroy 1 altar). The Avatar and Controller were already on the board at that point so we moved onto Mission 4. We killed the Aavatar at the end of the round, but when the Sin player summoned monsters during the End of Round phase he didn't summon the Avatar again thinking it was a "Destroy and Done" because of the mission objective. Afterward we thought about it, and Mission 4 doesn't state the Avatar and Controller can't be summoned again, so I believe we should have moved the Mission Progress to a '1' when we destroyed the Avatar, the Sin player could have summoned the Avatar after that round ended, and then we would have had to focus on destroying the Controller to complete the mission. Not allowing the Sin player to summon the Avatar made it very easy to take out the Controller.


Hmm. You're right. The rules only state you may summon Monsters (in general) and not specific monsters. So the only restriction is "Only Monsters that were killed may be Summoned at this point. Monsters that have not yet entered play cannot enter the game during this step."

Wow. That will make things even harder for the FAITH players once the Avatar gets summoned for the first time!
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Paul Sousa
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Chinkster wrote:
Hmm. You're right. The rules only state you may summon Monsters (in general) and not specific monsters. So the only restriction is "Only Monsters that were killed may be Summoned at this point. Monsters that have not yet entered play cannot enter the game during this step."

Wow. That will make things even harder for the FAITH players once the Avatar gets summoned for the first time!


Yup! That is some of the stuff we were scouring the rule book for clarification on, and finally we realized that the term Monster applies to basically all the baddies. And it specifies when some can't be spawned again after being destroyed (like the Hell Club characters).
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Kent
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psousa781 wrote:
Chinkster wrote:
Hmm. You're right. The rules only state you may summon Monsters (in general) and not specific monsters. So the only restriction is "Only Monsters that were killed may be Summoned at this point. Monsters that have not yet entered play cannot enter the game during this step."

Wow. That will make things even harder for the FAITH players once the Avatar gets summoned for the first time!


Yup! That is some of the stuff we were scouring the rule book for clarification on, and finally we realized that the term Monster applies to basically all the baddies. And it specifies when some can't be spawned again after being destroyed (like the Hell Club characters).


Acolytes are not Monsters, correct?

Edit: Reading other threads, it appears they are considered Monsters. This was not clear from the rulebook. Anyone play a demo at a con and can confirm?

2nd Edit: looking at the game description again, I am definitely not sure:

Quote:
The Sins player, on the other hand, has access to the different monsters of each Sin, including Abominations, a Controller, and the terrifying Avatar of Sin! These monsters can attempt to destroy the heroes, or simply hinder their progress on their missions. Each Sin provides the Sins Player with a different deck of Sins cards that can be played at different times to surprise players with different effects, often tied to the strategy of each Sin. Yes, because each Sin taints the game with an overarching mechanic that is always in effect. For example, Pride punishes prideful heroes that venture into the streets on their own, while Sloth punishes heroes who try to move quickly across the board. Heroes will need to learn to deal with the different influence of each Sin, which will always stand between them and their mission.

The Sins are also aided by Acolytes, with each session using a different type. These lowly corrupted servants of darkness can fight and stand in the way of heroes, but they also have a once per round special ability that reflects their previous lives. For example, corrupted hobos take equipment from heroes, corrupted nuns corrupt the city districts, and corrupted doctors keep heroes from healing.
 
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Paul Sousa
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icarusmustburn wrote:
psousa781 wrote:
Chinkster wrote:
Hmm. You're right. The rules only state you may summon Monsters (in general) and not specific monsters. So the only restriction is "Only Monsters that were killed may be Summoned at this point. Monsters that have not yet entered play cannot enter the game during this step."

Wow. That will make things even harder for the FAITH players once the Avatar gets summoned for the first time!


Yup! That is some of the stuff we were scouring the rule book for clarification on, and finally we realized that the term Monster applies to basically all the baddies. And it specifies when some can't be spawned again after being destroyed (like the Hell Club characters).


Acolytes are not Monsters, correct?

Edit: Reading other threads, it appears they are considered Monsters. This was not clear from the rulebook. Anyone play a demo at a con and can confirm?

2nd Edit: looking at the game description again, I am definitely not sure:

Quote:
The Sins player, on the other hand, has access to the different monsters of each Sin, including Abominations, a Controller, and the terrifying Avatar of Sin! These monsters can attempt to destroy the heroes, or simply hinder their progress on their missions. Each Sin provides the Sins Player with a different deck of Sins cards that can be played at different times to surprise players with different effects, often tied to the strategy of each Sin. Yes, because each Sin taints the game with an overarching mechanic that is always in effect. For example, Pride punishes prideful heroes that venture into the streets on their own, while Sloth punishes heroes who try to move quickly across the board. Heroes will need to learn to deal with the different influence of each Sin, which will always stand between them and their mission.

The Sins are also aided by Acolytes, with each session using a different type. These lowly corrupted servants of darkness can fight and stand in the way of heroes, but they also have a once per round special ability that reflects their previous lives. For example, corrupted hobos take equipment from heroes, corrupted nuns corrupt the city districts, and corrupted doctors keep heroes from healing.


This is one thing we had to figure out, but after looking at page 7 a few times we realized the "39 Monster Figures" includes Acolytes, Hells Club, Avatars, Abominations, and Controllers.

Edit: Also, the Summon Monsters rules don't say to summon "Monsters and Acolytes", only to summon Monsters, so if Acolytes were not Monsters they couldn't be summoned (which obviously isn't correct).
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James Potter
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Page 9 of rule book says "Take all 6 of the chosen Acolyte Monster figures...". So yes, they are monsters.
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Kent
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Thanks for the clarifications!
 
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Kevin Berent
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I'm only aware of a few Apocalypse cards that specifically instruct you to remove a certain summoned monster from the game if they are killed.

Based on that, and my understanding of the rulebook, summoning anything else is fair game, including the avatars, unless a card or scenario says otherwise.
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Eric Foldenauer
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Chinkster wrote:
Pg. 20 of the rules states "Any task accomplished only counts towards the current mission". So if you managed to kill the avatar and the controller before the final mission starts (like I did), you need to summon them again.

So for Haven in Flames the missions are:

#1 : destroy "x" monster in same round

#2a : End "x" turns in monster-free districts OR
#2b : Remove "x" fire tokens

(Once accomplished, summon Avatar)

#3 : Destroy 1 altar

#4 : Destroy Avatar and Controller


What if there aren't [X] fire tokens on the board after we complete Mission 1? Can we even do Mission 2b when there aren't enough tokens on the board? We ran into this dilemma on our first play.
 
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Albert
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fograsher wrote:

What if there aren't [X] fire tokens on the board after we complete Mission 1? Can we even do Mission 2b when there aren't enough tokens on the board? We ran into this dilemma on our first play.


At the start of each round in that story, the Sins player has to place two fire tokens. You'll just need to wait a round or two for that mission if you choose it.
 
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amanwing
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Do you need "number of players" successes in one single roll to destroy the altar?
 
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