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Subject: Chogoking's "Phoenix Wing Reborn" Ability rss

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Denis Litvak
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I was browsing through the cards and abilities spreadsheet and looked into Chogoking's Phoenix Wing ability. I figured since there was an alternate sculpt of this mode, it must be something special...

Turns out, you remove a useful ability like the Sabre (+1 range to melee) and gain... boost. An ability that lets you save a movement point or two when scaling buildings? And only until the end of the turn?

I feel like I'm missing something. It's essentially spending 2 power tokens for a temporary boost. Dai-Raijin has a similar ability, but his costs 1 power token and its permanent.

Boost seems like a very situational ability, and I can't imagine when it would be useful to take the Phoenix Wing ability when there are much better ones to choose. Not to mention Chogoking already has a card that does the same thing, but costs 3 spirit rather than 2 power (spirit builds much quicker for most pilots) and gives a fire token to help with other cards.

I wondered if Phoenix Wing was a prerequisite for any of the cards, but saw no such card. Then again, I'm not sure how final the spreadsheet is, seeing as some of Chogoking's cards refer to having the O-gun's Star Spanner.

Any thoughts from any of the designers or others?
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Oblivion Doll
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Phoenix Wing Reborn doesn't "cost" 2 power. It's an alternative utility for an ability which you already spent 2 power on.

Also, Phoenix Wing may be played for free when you're on an inferno, adds one fire (which can be used to fuel other cards), and lets you boost, which, while somewhat situational, has the potential to be VERY powerful when needed.

Most importantly for the sculpt, though, it's the most distinctive visual change for the robot, so it makes sense for that to be the focus of an alternate sculpt.
 
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Denis Litvak
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You have to deactivate Sabre, which costs 2 Power. So in essence you're spending 2 Power to activate the Phoenix Wing ability. Unless I'm misunderstanding what deactivate means for an ability.

I only see the free cost for being in an inferno on the card, not the ability, which furthers my point: Why take the ability when the card does the same thing but better and cheaper?
 
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Rock Bronson

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Dennis, actually I'm with you, but then I have 0 experience playing Chogoking. I have looked at a build and thought I would avoid it as well, but that's kinda the beauty of your own build. You do what you think is best and then test it's metal mettle.

I thought the same thing honestly about the Phoenix Wing, but I think that figure variant is a better idea than say, a flamey sword, even though I would use that ability more. Trying to make static flames look more dynamic rarely works even for very talented sculptors, imho.
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Oblivion Doll
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Atapoti wrote:
You have to deactivate Sabre, which costs 2 Power. So in essence you're spending 2 Power to activate the Phoenix Wing ability. Unless I'm misunderstanding what deactivate means for an ability.

I only see the free cost for being in an inferno on the card, not the ability, which furthers my point: Why take the ability when the card does the same thing but better and cheaper?


The Sabre costs 2 power. Deactivating it costs nothing. It comes with a potential cost of 2 power to reactivate, but that isn't Phoenix Wing Reborn's cost. Phoenix Wing Reborn allows for a situational triggering of the boost effect.

On the surface, boost looks unimportant, but there are times when it can mean the difference between getting into range for a massive combo, and only getting to roll a single die.

Not only does it let you pass over building hexes as if they were empty, but it lets you park on top of a building at the edge of your normal movement range instead of getting stuck beside it. Getting up high gives combat advantage, which means an extra die to roll against your opponent. Getting on top of a building beside your target means you go from them getting a cover bonus of +1 die to giving yourself an extra die instead.

There are potential benefits to being able to run 5 hexes in any direction with no movement modifiers applied when you need to back off. Being able to do so without spending any fighting spirit is an even bigger deal.

It isn't always going to be make-or-break, but it can be a game-changer when played at the right time.

EDIT: Personally, I'm more inclined to use the Phoenix Wing card, but I can see the benefits to Reborn as well.

Also there are times where you want to deactivate an ability anyway, to free up those power slots to use for additional dice. Getting a movement buff for doing so is a nice bonus if that's something you're building around.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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One reason would be if you're playing a Chogoking build where you don't want to take a lot of fire in your own cool down meter (as the instant gives you fire, ability doesn't).

Another would be if you want to take Robot abilities that don't eat up all your power tokens. Maybe you want to deactivate phoenix wing reborn to boost onto a T2 Structure so that you can set yourself up for Combat Advantage, and have those 2 power tokens available so that if you take Rage or start your turn and take them for Heart, to allow yourself to roll 2 more dice for a larger attack.

I could also see you using the ability and the instant if you're playing someone like Ascalon Alpha and need more than one way to boost and get combat advantage.

edit: this is similar to one of the big choices for Ayzn - do you take the classic Iron Fusion stages and eat up all 6 power tokens, or do you switch up your abilities to leave power tokens available to roll for certain situations.
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Nate Parkes
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I suspect that it mainly serves as a strong counter for a hit-and-run or ranged opponent. If they're relying on using interposing terrain to keep you safely out of range, and you have Phoenix Wing with an Activated Chogoking Sabre, your opponent needs to be at least 7 spaces away to avoid a melee attack.

Forcing them to chose between trying to be effective at extreme range or moving in to engage at close range can upset their strategy and distract their focus. None of which costs you anything, since you don't need to use Phoenix Wing Reborn in order to have the threat of using it.
 
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Denis Litvak
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Thanks for helping clear things up. It still feels rather costly for a temporary ability that only applies to a few situations.

I can kinda see the point of needing to fill an ability slot with something that doesn't take up power tokens itself, but it's almost more useful to just take something else and deactivate an ability manually when you need extra power tokens in reserve. It's not much different.

And I feel like if I'm just trying to get combat advantage, just spending the extra movement points, jumping on a building, and not losing +1 melee range leaves me with more options in terms of melee attack cards.

I might have to try out a more range centered build to see if its worth it as an offensive ability.

I do see it being useful in chasing down the faster more hit-and-run characters, but do I really want to take up precious ability slots for it? Especially when I'm forced to deactivate a very useful ability that would only help with out of reach targets?

Ayzn's 3 stages vs other abilities feel like a more balanced decision because you're exchanging the ability to roll power dice for some pretty significant buffs and playable cards.

I guess I'm mostly disappointed that Phoenix Wing, which I figured to be an awesome God Gundam-eque power-up mode based on the Sol Sphere art ends up being one of Chogoking's weakest abilities.
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mathew rynich
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Weakest ability? That sounds a bit harsh. I think you need to actually try it out. For point of comparison Hadrian's cost for gaining boost is much more significant. Dai-Raijin V can do it for cheaper, but then he is also suppose to be the fastest robot in the game. You can also just use the card to gain the wings if you feel the ability is too costly. There are two ways for Chogoking to trigger his wings. The ability just allows you do to it for basically free. Chogoking Sabre isn't always needed and Boost is a very significant ability. Try the demo and see just how often 1 or 2 movement points can be very significant considering the types of spatial scenarios many of these robots want to set up.

Add: Also depending on the pilot 2 power is not all that big a deal. Kong is gaining it in a steady stream. Kato can gain a significant amount each turn if he wants. It's not unreasonable to boost and reactivate the sword if it means getting back into melee range for someone like Kato who wants to be in that area. Some robots want to play keep away or do hit and run tactics and this helps you break out of that sort of thing.
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Denis Litvak
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You're right, I would need to try it more to see if it's more useful than I give it credit for. I did demo the game (Gen-con), and I can't recall a situation where I needed boost. I was fighting Ayzn and building were rapidly collapsing in our wake, so little chance to need boost.

I still feel its one of the weakest abilities next to Trace Burn, which only helps with fire heavy builds.

Looking at the options I can see where the ability does help to fill up a slot for a Chogo who doesn't want anything to do with fire, since Magma Breach and Trace Burn rely on setting yourself on fire and the Phoenix Wing card requires you to take fire.

Thanks everyone for helping clarify Reborn's place in this game.
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mathew rynich
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Fighting Ayzn you won't most likely need it considering he's going to be chasing you the whole game. So that was a bad match up for the ability. Against Dai-Raijin V, O-Gun or Ascalon Alpha you could potentially get into situations where they dance out of your sweet spot for your stronger plays.

Not all the abilities need to be useful all the time. I think that adds flavor to the game when certain abilities are only useful in certain builds (like Trace Burn). That said having the flexibility of boost is not that fringe of a utility in my opinion, but then again this game is designed such that you can steer these builds in many different ways to suit your playstyle.

Add: If you are disappointed that the alternate sculpt depicts something you are not excited about keep in mind that the pose Chogoking is making is the Sol Sphere! ultimate attack, which is a very powerful ability. I assume the wings open up to power the ability based on the art. Kind of like the Gundam X when it uses it's satellite cannon attack.
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Alex Cheng
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It's definitely more contextual, but it becomes really impactful when you have a city build that has "walls" of structures that can get between you and your opponent that can limit their movement or force them to have to burn their movement to get closer to their melee range against you.

Hitting at a distance with Chogoking Sabre, then deactivating it to gain Boost and spending your movement to get a few layers of Structures between you and your opponent and hitting at range can be really effective, especially when you play Genki Drive afterwards and can cross the entire map and hopefully route your opponent's movement.

Alternately, if you're playing with a build where you want to be freeing up Power Tokens anyhow but are building out your Ability suite with more expensive to activate abilities like Blazing Aegis, it can be great in a clinch.
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