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Subject: 9th of Av rss

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Moshe Callen
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This shabbat, tomorrow night and the following daytime, is the 9th of the Hebrew month of Av. Normally when it is not shabbat, it is a fast day, a day of national mourning for the Jewish people. That fast is this year pushed off a day to the 10th because the actual 9th is shabbat and shabbat is never a day of mourning. Countless national tragedies are said to have happened on this day, but what we mark the most is the destruction of both Temples.

Even we Jews often find it difficult to grasp the implications of the lack of a Temple because we have not had one for most of two millennia. Jews are forbidden to pray on the mountain where it was, although we can do so at the Kotel or Western Wall of the outer courtyard of the Temple. It is assumed by our gov't that a religious war would ensue if anyone seriously tries to rebuild the Temple. Yet increasingly the opinion is gaining ground that the Temple could be built next to the Mosque of Omar without damaging it. Then Jews and Muslims could share the mountain.

Judaism is most fundamentally living as part of the Jewish people, a nation but not a country. (Israel is a secular democracy on our traditional lands but it is entirely distinct from the Jewish people as a nation.) Our nation by its law has a gov't of three branches.

1. The judicial and legislative branch is the Sanhedrin whose leader, the Nasi or president, is like the prime minister. In peace time, for all practical purposes, the Nasi is in charge. The rabanim are a pool from which members of the Sanhedrin are drawn. Students are yeshivot and kollels are those from whom rabanim are drawn. Yet the Sanhedrin sits and indeed legally must sit in the Temple district. Without a temple, there can be no Sanhedrin.

2. The king and his officers serve both as the leaders of the military and as diplomats. The king presides over wars but also makes treaties etc and issues decrees on anything not specifically covered by Jewish law. Without a Temple, there can be no king; the king cannot be either placed in office or fulfill certain requirements of his office.

3. The kohanim and leviim each serve from two weeks to a month in the Temple and for the rest of the year act as community support. They also have religious ceremonial duties. Without a Temple, the structure of this system just doesn't exist.

Then on top of all that, most of the mitzvot-- the things we as Jews are commanded to do-- have a connection to the Temple. In short, the loss without a Temple is simply incalculable to the Jewish people.
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Chapel
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Shouldn't have fucked with the Romans.
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Moshe Callen
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MWChapel wrote:
Shouldn't have fucked with the Romans.

we didn't really. They messed with us.
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Christopher Seguin
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Is it mandatory that the Temple be built (re-built) in Jerusalem, on the particular mountain where it once stood?

Can it be built "next to" it's original two locations? Can a new Temple utilize the portion of the Western Wall that is currently located in Jerusalem?

Or is it pretty much a foregone conclusion that as long as the Mosque of Omar remains standing, the Temple will never be built (despite increased opinion that it could be done)?

I am just curious.
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David desJardins
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whac3 wrote:
Even we Jews often find it difficult to grasp the implications of the lack of a Temple because we have not had one for most of two millennia.


We atheists have gone without a Temple for even longer.
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Mike Stiles
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This touches on a subject that fascinates me, but I don't know nearly as much about as I'd like -

The evolution from Second Temple Judaism into modern Rabbinical Judaism, and the differences between the two.

An interesting thing is that we know less than you'd think about the practices of the former, or at least that was the case last time I was reading up on it.
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Chapel
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whac3 wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Shouldn't have fucked with the Romans.

we didn't really. They messed with us.


Israel didn't like Rome's level of Taxation. So they made war with Rome. I'm sure it was "justified". Of course you lost, and they took your Temple away.

Was it worth it?
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Josh
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Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.
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Chapel
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Shadrach wrote:
Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.


This ain't the "Feel The Love Thread".

If you're going to decry about something that happened 2000 years ago, hey lets learn some lessons.

Just seems weird to me, if the temple was "that" important, why did Israel fight an unwinnable war and risk it to destruction and plundering?

Or maybe, this is just a call back with all of Moshe's "justifiable" wars, and the importance of religion in government.
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MWChapel wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.


This ain't the "Feel The Love Thread".

If you're going to decry about something that happened 2000 years ago, hey lets learn some lessons.

Just seems weird to me, if the temple was "that" important, why did Israel fight an unwinnable war and risk it to destruction and plundering?


Presumably because they thought they could win :p

It probably also never occurred to them that rome would Raze the Temple (and a good part of the city)

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Moshe Callen
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windsagio wrote:
This touches on a subject that fascinates me, but I don't know nearly as much about as I'd like -

The evolution from Second Temple Judaism into modern Rabbinical Judaism, and the differences between the two.

An interesting thing is that we know less than you'd think about the practices of the former, or at least that was the case last time I was reading up on it.

Bear in mind that "rabanical Judaism" is largely a myth based on the needs of antisemites who self-denfitied as Christians trying to "prove" that Christianity was "really" the older religion.
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Moshe Callen
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μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
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chrisnd wrote:
Is it mandatory that the Temple be built (re-built) in Jerusalem, on the particular mountain where it once stood?

Basically yes
Quote:

Can it be built "next to" its original two locations? Can a new Temple utilize the portion of the Western Wall that is currently located in Jerusalem?

Or is it pretty much a foregone conclusion that as long as the Mosque of Omar remains standing, the Temple will never be built (despite increased opinion that it could be done)?

I am just curious.

No, that's the point. The mosque of Omar is next to where the Temple needs to be built according to more and more rabanim. Christians, Muslims, and Jews often have differing opinions on such things.
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David desJardins
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Shadrach wrote:
Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.


Which two? My family is Jewish, I think I understand his perspective very well already, so there's not much new insight here. But I have no objection to what he said. If Israel weren't oppressing the Palestinians so much, and the Palestinians weren't attacking Israel in response, in a never-ending spiral of violence, the situation he describes seems like one that could be resolved, and that would be a good thing to do so. In the current environment, it's not really possible; that's one casualty of decades of conflict.
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Chapel
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windsagio wrote:


Presumably because they thought they could win

It probably also never occurred to them that rome would Raze the Temple (and a good part of the city)



"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" -- Isoroku Yamamoto
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Moshe Callen
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MWChapel wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.


This ain't the "Feel The Love Thread".

If you're going to decry about something that happened 2000 years ago, hey lets learn some lessons.

Just seems weird to me, if the temple was "that" important, why did Israel fight an unwinnable war and risk it to destruction and plundering?

Or maybe, this is just a call back with all of Moshe's "justifiable" wars, and the importance of religion in government.

To be blunt, we were damned if we did or we didn't. When we fought the Romans it was out of desperation because most likely we were dead either way.
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Josh
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Someone shares something that matters to them personally and gives insight into their beliefs and the beliefs of a group of people that many outsiders do not really grasp.

Two of the first responders take the time to be dicks about it.


Which two? My family is Jewish, I think I understand his perspective very well already, so there's not much new insight here. But I have no objection to what he said. If Israel weren't oppressing the Palestinians so much, and the Palestinians weren't attacking Israel in response, in a never-ending spiral of violence, the situation he describes seems like one that could be resolved, and that would be a good thing to do so. In the current environment, it's not really possible; that's one casualty of decades of conflict.


I was tagging you and Chapel. Him for the 'lol shouldn't have fought the Romans!' line which run up there with 'shouldn't have fought the bully if you didn't want to have your arm broken!' in terms of usefulness. You because an atheist not having a temple is in no way analogous to a practicing Jew not having the Temple. An atheist has no use for a temple, it has no spiritual or cultural significance for them, so the lack of one isn't even remotely the same. It's a rather passive-aggressive means of belittling their beliefs.

Granted better than Hyperbolus or somesuch coming in and saying 'lol dumb jewz.' but still not exactly contributory or encouraging.
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whac3 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
This touches on a subject that fascinates me, but I don't know nearly as much about as I'd like -

The evolution from Second Temple Judaism into modern Rabbinical Judaism, and the differences between the two.

An interesting thing is that we know less than you'd think about the practices of the former, or at least that was the case last time I was reading up on it.

Bear in mind that "rabanical Judaism" is largely a myth based on the needs of antisemites who self-denfitied as Christians trying to "prove" that Christianity was "really" the older religion.


From what we know, the tradition has changed, in fact, it HAD to change between the destruction of the temple and the diaspora.

The forces working on different religions are different, which is what makes the evolution of Judaism interesting, as it was under some very unique pressures and circumstances that don't really apply to Christianity or Islam or even another Ethnic religion like Shinto.
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Shadrach wrote:
... but still not exactly contributory or encouraging.



Well, I'm certainly not going to encourage the rebuilding of the temple at the cost of a religious war that would ensue. Which is this what Moshe is "personally" entertaining?

If so, terrible idea.
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MWChapel wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
... but still not exactly contributory or encouraging.



Well, I'm certainly not going to encourage the rebuilding of the temple at the cost of a religious war that would ensue. Which is this what Moshe is "personally" entertaining?

If so, terrible idea.


Encouraging as in encouraging to share personal ideas, cultural facets, and genuine discussion.
 
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Dave-I was replying to you when you nuked your message.

I just wanted to say I think you bring up a valid point. Atheists I've spoken to personally seem to consider the lack of a 'Temple' symbology a strength, but I could see how others might crave a 'touchstone' to call their own.

I think it would be tricky to integrate into what I've absorbed as the main thrust of Atheism though, that it is a self-deterministic journey. A universal symbol would seem to fly in the face of that. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of a symbol might work, and how it would be integrated into the belief system though.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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MWChapel wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
... but still not exactly contributory or encouraging.



Well, I'm certainly not going to encourage the rebuilding of the temple at the cost of a religious war that would ensue. Which is this what Moshe is "personally" entertaining?

If so, terrible idea.


I would be okay with a religious war in Jerusalem over the rebuilding of the Temple.

Of course, that is from a Christian eschatological viewpoint, so I believe that it's going to happen anyway. Accelerating it to occur early is just a side-affect.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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Shadrach wrote:
Dave-I was replying to you when you nuked your message.

I just wanted to say I think you bring up a valid point. Atheists I've spoken to personally seem to consider the lack of a 'Temple' symbology a strength, but I could see how others might crave a 'touchstone' to call their own.

I think it would be tricky to integrate into what I've absorbed as the main thrust of Atheism though, that it is a self-deterministic journey. A universal symbol would seem to fly in the face of that. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of a symbol might work, and how it would be integrated into the belief system though.


Stonehenge?
 
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Moshe Callen
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windsagio wrote:
whac3 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
This touches on a subject that fascinates me, but I don't know nearly as much about as I'd like -

The evolution from Second Temple Judaism into modern Rabbinical Judaism, and the differences between the two.

An interesting thing is that we know less than you'd think about the practices of the former, or at least that was the case last time I was reading up on it.

Bear in mind that "rabanical Judaism" is largely a myth based on the needs of antisemites who self-denfitied as Christians trying to "prove" that Christianity was "really" the older religion.


From what we know, the tradition has changed, in fact, it HAD to change between the destruction of the temple and the diaspora.

The forces working on different religions are different, which is what makes the evolution of Judaism interesting, as it was under some very unique pressures and circumstances that don't really apply to Christianity or Islam or even another Ethnic religion like Shinto.

I don't object to the notion it changed or evolved. What I object to is the rejection of the Jewish historical perspective that it grew out of adaptation to the new reality and preserved whatever could be preserved of the older traditions.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
... but still not exactly contributory or encouraging.



Well, I'm certainly not going to encourage the rebuilding of the temple at the cost of a religious war that would ensue. Which is this what Moshe is "personally" entertaining?

If so, terrible idea.

I favor doing it with the full participation and cooperation of Muslim religious authorities. The point is that I favor doing it in a way that makes peace, not war.
 
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David desJardins
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Shadrach wrote:
An atheist has no use for a temple, it has no spiritual or cultural significance for them, so the lack of one isn't even remotely the same.


I reject the idea that because you think God told you to do something that you have any more right to have it.
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