David Goulette
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Hi all,

The red box that follows rule 1.4.1 isn't clear to me and I couldn't quite find the answer on BGG. It says:

Quote:
Important: Factions, while executing a Command, Special Activity, or Event to place their own forces, may take them from elsewhere on the map into Available if and only if the desired force type is not Available.


I bolded the part that is confusing to me. Does this mean that:

A) you can move a force (or forces) from elsewhere on the map to the space where you are placing your piece?

or

B) you literally do what it says: take the force (or forces) from somewhere on the map and place them in the Available space (thereby making them available for a future action)?

or some other interpretation?

If A is correct, then the bold part should be dropped, right? What purpose is "into Available" serving?

If B is correct, then shouldn't it say "... take them from elsewhere on the map and place them in Available if and only if..."


 
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P. Fowler
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It's more like A. You can take forces off the map and place them elsewhere (via Command or Event) only if there are none in your Available box. The bolded portion is because you can't technically move pieces directly through the Command. (None allow it, AFAIK.) So they added that to give you the way to move them back to Available so you could place them.
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David Goulette
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Thanks Turbine.

That is what I thought but then, if that is the case, I still think the bolded part should be removed (unless there is a special case that I am missing here). The entire box already reads like an exception to the paragraph the precedes it, so I don't think there would be any problem with contradicting the fact that you can only place forces from the available boxes.

But I am open if somebody has an example of why that language is there.
 
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P. Fowler
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anaturalharmonic wrote:
I still think the bolded part should be removed (unless there is a special case that I am missing here).

The bolded part covers the middleman that other games missed. (FITL has almost this exact phrasing, minus the bolded part.)
anaturalharmonic wrote:
The entire box already reads like an exception to the paragraph the precedes it...

It is. You can't place/replace with nothing in Available normally, only when you're the one executing the Com/SA/Event.
 
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David Goulette
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Turbine2k5 wrote:
anaturalharmonic wrote:
I still think the bolded part should be removed (unless there is a special case that I am missing here).

The bolded part covers the middleman that other games missed. (FITL has almost this exact phrasing, minus the bolded part.)


What is "the middleman?" I've only played Cuba Libre and LoD.

 
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P. Fowler
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anaturalharmonic wrote:
Turbine2k5 wrote:
anaturalharmonic wrote:
I still think the bolded part should be removed (unless there is a special case that I am missing here).

The bolded part covers the middleman that other games missed. (FITL has almost this exact phrasing, minus the bolded part.)


What is "the middleman?" I've only played Cuba Libre and LoD.


What I mentioned earlier: that none of the Commands that are meant to place pieces (Muster, Rally, Gather) lets you shift forces directly between spaces. It's just clarifying when and how you would remove forces from the map to place them. There's nothing wrong with the paragraph.
 
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David Goulette
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Turbine2k5 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the paragraph.


Well... I respectfully disagree.

I would say that the intent of the rule is not clear from the way 1.4.1 is written. I really think this could be written better. As it is written it is not clear what to do with the force that is returned to available. The likely inference is that you can then place this newly available piece but that is not completely clear.

Please understand that I really love the two COIN games I have played, but the one complaint I have is the rules. Now, I know that the rules are terse, but they are terse to the point of leaving abiguity. I personally feel that the rules should be written for ease of learning. That means that more words might be needed and maybe even some repetition in different sections.

Just my thoughts on a tired thursday... I could be convinced otherwise. :-)
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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anaturalharmonic wrote:
B) you literally do what it says: take the force (or forces) from somewhere on the map and place them in the Available space (thereby making them available for a future an immediate action)?

With the above change, the interpretation is correct. There is no need to wait to a future action; as soon as you put your pieces in the Available box, you may immediately place them on the map using whatever placing action you're currently executing.

The game term "place" is defined in the rules as taking a piece from the Available box and put it on the map. Explicitly putting the pieces you take from the map into Available before placing them back on the map means that the "place" rules work in the same way no matter where the placed pieces ultimately came from. In FitL, removing the words "into Available" from 1.4.1 caused several annoying loopholes and ambiguities where players misinterpreted the 1.4.1 "take from map" option to in various creative ways; browse the FitL forums to see the various discussions. For LoD we put those two words back into 1.4.1 to close those various loopholes.

Regards,
Oerjan
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John Razler
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You should take the term "available" literally.
 
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David Goulette
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Thank you Oerjan. I now understand the intent of the rule and it is clear to me and I appreciate the help.

Now, I would like to say that the rule doesn't clearly say the bolded part in what you just said:

Oerjan wrote:
... [put] the pieces you take from the map into Available before placing them back on the map


The LoD rules were the first COIN rules I read and knew nothing of the FitL discussions. Having now played CL a few times I am revisiting LoD and this rule didn't make sense to me on a cold read.

I feel that when there is an explicit exception to a general rule, the steps of how you execute that exception should be laid out as procedure (as much as possible). I think this makes the game easier to learn.

Here is my humble 1st attempt at a rewrite of the rule in question. My point here is to make it clear to the person who knows nothing of any COIN game and is reading this rulebook cold. (first paragraph unchanged):


1.4.1 Availability and Removal. The Available Forces [... nothing changed here...] from the map go to Available.

1.4.1(a) Unless otherwise instructed (by Event, 5.1), forces may only be placed from or replaced with those in the Available boxes.
A piece to be replaced by a piece that is unavailable is simply
removed.

IMPORTANT:
1.4.1(b) Exception to 1.4.1(a) If the following three conditions are true regarding placing a force (or forces):

1) a faction executes a Command, Special Activity, or Event to place their own forces.

2) there are no pieces of the desired type of force in the corresponding Available box.

3) the force type is not a British Regular or French Regular.

then any force of that type may first be removed from any space on the map to Available and then immediately used to complete the desired placement action.

EXAMPLE: Indians without Available War Parties could, during a Gather, remove war parties to the Available box (including active ones) and then immediately complete the Gather action using these newly available war parties (which places them underground).
 
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