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Subject: It seems the "GOSS" system gets no love. rss

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Clay Stone
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It seems like the "GOSS" (Grand Operational Simulation Series) gets no real love. I rarely hear anyone mention the game system. I for one have been enjoying the game system a lot and have been wondering why others haven't brought it up like OCS or GTS, or SCS..etc.

Now, i'm a newbie compare to you guys on here. I've only been playing for 2.5 years in this hobby and the only other systems i've learn has been, Last Chance for Victory, Where Eagles Dare, The Battle for Normandy, Beyond Valor: ASL Module 1, but the GOSS for me has really stood out with me as a deep and fun realistic system with games like, Hurtgen: Hell's Forest and Atlantic Wall: D-Day to Falaise.

Gunny, wrote something interesting on it that really brings the game alive and why it's such a great system.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1618538/next-time-youre-pla...


I just like to at least give some props to the game mechanics.


...
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Juan Valdez
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I'm surely not the only person here following these games. Since I currently have far more money than either time or table space (or probably common sense) I even own Hurgten and WaR. I'll get around to them at some point; I'm looking forward to it.

Would love to have some very small scenarios to tide me over. I'm currently working through Kiev to Rostov #4 Battle for Sumy, which is on an 8/5 x 11" map. I'm also looking forward to the small scenarios coming in Silver Bayonet. These are super helpful for learning the systems.
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Jim F
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I am currently admiring it from afar. Does that count?
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Douglas Brunton
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I'm still getting my introduction to the system playing Hurtgen but I've really enjoyed my solo learning game so far and have been so impressed with the system that I pulled the trigger on Atlantic Wall - which should be showing up Monday.

The rules complexity gave me pause for thought prior to getting Hurtgen but I've found them reasonably clear and a revision to address ambiguities and simplify some aspects is on the way within the next month.

There are excellent vassal modules for those who are short of space and/or lack for opponents nearby.

Doug
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Nick Wade
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Looks like a fascinating system to me, and although I've read through most of the rules, I've decided to wait until the revision comes out before tackling a game, with Hurtgen to be first up.

I suspect that it gets less love than other systems is because:
1) DG's image
2) Rulebook complaints
3) Complexity
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Carl Paradis
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I can take pretty much any level of complexity, but games are way too big. No way I'm going into this. Can't smaller games be made using that system?
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Douglas Brunton
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licinius wrote:
I can take pretty much any level of complexity, but games are way too big. No way I'm going into this. Can't smaller games be made using that system?


I'd think that there's no reason why smaller games couldn't be made using the system, or perhaps even more smaller scenarios within the larger games. Atlantic Wall does come with a number of smaller scenarios.

In the end it's probably largely a preference of this designer to focus the games on the big, big actions. Designers, as I think also in your case, tend to create games that they themselves want to play.

These games are ideal for team play.

Doug
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Carl Paradis
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dougb1 wrote:

These games are ideal for team play.


I bet they are!

For large games I much prefer titles with simpler rules. Having a complex AND huge game makes it incredibly hard to play.

Good example of a playable big game:

Proud Monster Deluxe





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Rich M
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licinius wrote:
dougb1 wrote:

These games are ideal for team play.


I bet they are!

For large games I much prefer titles with simpler rules. Having a complex AND huge game makes it incredibly hard to play.

Good example of a playable big game:

Proud Monster Deluxe






That is the big issue as playability, time and complexity. The fact is most of us do not have the time to play a long winded multi day game nor the time to learn a complicated game.
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Joel Tamburo
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GOSS unfortunately has acquired a bad reputation over its various releases of the games being riddled with errata, including large numbers of instances of misprinted counters and the like. While that is much more the fault of the publisher than the designer the stigma does stick.

I think from a different publisher GOSS would have caught on better.
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Tony Doran
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Joelist wrote:
GOSS unfortunately has acquired a bad reputation over its various releases of the games being riddled with errata, including large numbers of instances of misprinted counters and the like. While that is much more the fault of the publisher than the designer the stigma does stick.

I think from a different publisher GOSS would have caught on better.


All of the problems you describe were tied to the first effort at Wacht Am Rhein. It took years to get it right and not all (tho many) of the problems were from the publisher. But designer and publisher stuck it out and the result was a fine game with the second release of Wacht. Huertgen Forest and Atlantic Wall have not suffered the same problems, and so the system has begun to gather quite a following.

Someone else mentioned that many folks just do not have the time and/or space for games this large or complex. I think that is right, and is a trend in the wargaming hobby. But for folks who want the complexity and size, this system appears to be quite good at this point. It would benefit from either the release of more, smaller scenarios, and, perhaps, application to a smaller battle, like, say Diadem in Italy.
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Joel Tamburo
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Actually Tony they also occurred in Huertgen and Atlantic Wall. And what do we have going on now? Another full rules rewrite. By now this should be stable.

I would love GOSS to actually fully work properly. But it seems like a dream on the horizon.
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John Vasilakos
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I first saw GOSS in an early playtest at Origins, 99 I think. It was scary, lots of complex subsystems and When I saw that things like ZOC strength depended on what artillery was in range....I ran away screaming, never looking back. Based on what I have read and what my friends have told me I think I made the right decision.

The BCS is as much complexity I believe a game can handle....

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Douglas Brunton
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It's a system that's well suited for play over vassal where there's really no compelling game completion deadline and space is no concern.

Doug
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Nick Wade
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Joelist wrote:
Another full rules rewrite. By now this should be stable.

I would love GOSS to actually fully work properly. But it seems like a dream on the horizon.


It does work and it's not a full rules rewrite. It's such things that put people off the system. OCS is past version 4 so not stable, but no one complains.
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I own both and had WaR I and SPI WaR - the latter two long gone.

Despise having to deal with endless rewrites - so hopefully what happens in September is finally done.

Meanwhile, BCS, which got it right with minor blemishes, the first time.

OCS, I got into that with my first OCS game at Version 3 - Case Blue. So, I did not worry about previous editions or get them.

WaR II and HF are beautiful games and promising systems - its like ASL at company/battalion level.

Would be neat to compare it to BCS - I know it is far more detailed, some would say 'fiddly', and the turns are 3 per day while BCS is 1 per day.

GOSS reminds me of the scope of MMPs GTS - though GTS is of far superior production value.
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Douglas Brunton
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Wilhammer wrote:
I own both and had WaR I and SPI WaR - the latter two long gone.

Despise having to deal with endless rewrites - so hopefully what happens in September is finally done.

Meanwhile, BCS, which got it right with minor blemishes, the first time.

OCS, I got into that with my first OCS game at Version 3 - Case Blue. So, I did not worry about previous editions or get them.

WaR II and HF are beautiful games and promising systems - its like ASL at company/battalion level.

Would be neat to compare it to BCS - I know it is far more detailed, some would say 'fiddly', and the turns are 3 per day while BCS is 1 per day.

GOSS reminds me of the scope of MMPs GTS - though GTS is of far superior production value.


Interesting comment about GTS - I tried a couple of games of that and kind of felt meh about the system. It just didn't grab me. Probably one of the big reasons was the problematic use of color for firepower types - I don't have very good color vision and had a heck of a time figuring out what color the small box on the unit was.

I'm keeping my The Greatest Day at the moment but thinking about trading it at some point.

Doug
 
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Clay Stone
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licinius wrote:
dougb1 wrote:

These games are ideal for team play.


I bet they are!

For large games I much prefer titles with simpler rules. Having a complex AND huge game makes it incredibly hard to play.

Good example of a playable big game:

Proud Monster Deluxe







The thing is, for me that is, the rules are "not" that difficult. I think a lot of people heard the rules were difficult and without even trying the game feel they should pass on the system...

The reason why i say this is because when i was looking at this game system i would read this, but then when i jumped into it myself i said, hey this isn't that tough...

Just my 2 cents

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Joel Tamburo
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Hattusilis_III wrote:
Joelist wrote:
Another full rules rewrite. By now this should be stable.

I would love GOSS to actually fully work properly. But it seems like a dream on the horizon.


It does work and it's not a full rules rewrite. It's such things that put people off the system. OCS is past version 4 so not stable, but no one complains.


Sorry but it is a full rules rewrite. And yes I know OCS is on v4, but even in v1 it could be played - the same could not be credibly said of what is now known as GOSS. But I do agree that being on v4 is not good, especially when each iteration has featured major system changes.

BCS looks interesting but the jury is still out. If it starts yielding the kinds of German ubermensch capabilities that to me destroyed the credibility of OCS then it too goes on the shelf.
 
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Nick Wade
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Oh well, my impression from following the discussion on CSW is that it is about rules clarifications and that the game has been playable for some time. I read the rules earlier this year in preparation to play Hurtgen and I thought they were pretty understandable.

As for OCS on its 4th plus iteration, I don't mind if rules evolve, but I guess the point is that it doesn't cop nearly the grief that GOSS does.
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Clay Stone
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The rules to date are completely playable...it's a very fun and deep system to get into.





...
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M St
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claystone wrote:
It seems like the "GOSS" (Grand Operational Simulation Series) gets no real love. I rarely hear anyone mention the game system. I for one have been enjoying the game system a lot and have been wondering why others haven't brought it up like OCS or GTS, or SCS..etc.

Now, i'm a newbie compare to you guys on here. I've only been playing for 2.5 years in this hobby and the only other systems i've learn has been,

The GOSS system is a festering, smoking, ruin of system development. It started out extremely complex and through a decade-long constant rewriting process changed into something even more complex, still not quite solid, and still not settled. So if you've been around for 2 1/2 years you have missed most of this excruciating and ludicrous process - including expecting buyers of the system to buy the same game again to get a working version, within a handful of years.

Yes, OCS is now in the 4th edition but in between it sat still, it worked from the start, all games except the first could be adapted to the newer rules - and it took 2 1/2 as long to get there as GOSS did, and in the same time published twice as many games per year. So in terms of stability it's about four times as good as GOSS. There is also no comparison to the occasional OCS reprints which usually come 10-20 years after the original, and focus on OOB and graphics updates.

And I say this as someone who is neither an OCS fan nor an admirer of OCS development quality. That GOSS is played is a testament to the determination of wargamers who crave detail, and that is fine - but it's not to the credit of the system or its publisher.
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J.L. Robert
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Well, the usual suspects have chimed in, and lined up along the expected sides.
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Nick Wade
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Imagine the gall of someone liking a game that someone else thinks is rubbish... don't they know any better...
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Erwin Lau
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The problem of GOSS is not because of its complexity.

As an ASLer for 30 years, there are not many games I considered as complex games.
GOSS is fine in complexity level. I just think it tedious.
All the excitement of wargaming during play are gone unless you play solo.

The main problems are:
1. after going thru. all the tedious SOP, movement order, stacking, spotting, covering terrain, PA,/non-PA, ammo, attachment rules,
the game does not offer that much compared to, say TBFN, in terms of commander decision making.
Worse, because of the long time to take to resolve combats, the decision making frequency is relatively low.

For example: no matter you like Artillery Soakoff or not. This is a case in point that GOSS uses a very convoluted incentive to ask the attacker to barrage nearby defender to avoid unfavorable column shift.
Whereas in TBFN, you just do away with it by claiming artillery soakoff or suicidal side assault.


2. Play style and doctrine are forced little by little in game mechanics.
Whereas games like GTS and ASL apply doctrines elegantly by letting players to adopt to what they have.

3. one sub-system over another sub-system. Make it feel like it is kind of bandaging.

4. After all these many years in wargaming, I start to admire games that emphasize at battlefield chaos.
GOSS's god-like-style-total-control mode is just too old school in this regard for me.

No doubt if my gaming table is empty and nobody will come to my house for wargaming in the next few weeks,
I might consider pulling out Hurtgen to tinker a bit. Fantasizing and RPGing.
But as a competitive game to challenge fellow players, I would not dare to bore my friends to death.

Different strokes for different folks. Just my two cents.

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