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Subject: Roads--can you combine them with a convoy? rss

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dave
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'During migration, all your citizens may move by one additional region.'

Obviously roads are on the land, but could a unit move and then use a boat (or convoy and then move)?

I thought for sure someone would have asked this, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I'm thinking that technically water and land movement are probably not combinable, but I'm leaning towards a more permissive ruling since the couple of times Roads has come up, either no one bought the card or it didn't get used so it seemed a bit underpowered, even at 1 gold. And besides, thematically, the roads are there, so why would it matter if you used them for a strictly land movement, or combined them to take a ferry. Anyways, is there an official ruling on this (or can someone point me to the rules)?

Thanks.

Awesome game, btw.
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Kynan Stuttard
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If your doing a migration action, either with an action disk on the action board or with an evolution card (that can possibly let you move more than one tile at a time), if there is a body of water separating 2 land areas in either the tile your leaving or the tile your moving too, then you need a boat to "ferry" them across the water. This works for 1. Land over water to land in a tile then move to next tile, 2. move to next tile, then land over water to land. 3. land over water in originating tile then over water in destination tile back to land.
But it doesn't give you extra tile movement.

The roads card, just lets you move additional Tiles. The ruling is in reference to the number of "Tiles" you can move.

Hope this helps.. and yes.. an awesome game.
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dave
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Um, not terribly helpful. Perhaps I can make my question clearer.

Hex A is inland adjacent to coastal Hex B; across the sea is Hex C with inland Hex D.

Normal Migration allows movement from A to B (or vice versa) and C to D. With a Boat, you could also Convoy from B to C.

Now if Roads are in use, can you use the roads to move from A to B and then Convoy to C (thus moving from A to C)? Or Convoy from B to C and then use the roads to move to D (moving from B to D)?

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P. oeppel
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i can't see why you couldn't. let's say the sea convoy is the normal migration, then the roads allow you one additional (land) movement.
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dave
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pinoeppel wrote:
i can't see why you couldn't. let's say the sea convoy is the normal migration, then the roads allow you one additional (land) movement.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking too. It's nice to get a confirmation on that.

I was thinking maybe there was some kind of issue with 'extra' (like you needed to take 1 move before you could take an extra move) or that somehow the roads weren't compatible with sea movement. Migration is not a very strong move anyways (I rarely if ever migrate), and oftentimes there are better cards to buy, so I'm all for empowering it.

We played the Volcano variant this morning so we both actually used the Migration action twice (to get back to the volcano for the endgame), and only then did Roads come up--if it had come up earlier, I would have bought it and used it as it would had saved me an action, but alas it was not to be. (Volcano variant is pretty good if you haven't seen it too)

 
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Nick Clinite
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If it helps to clarify: sea convoys basically allow you to treat two land tiles separated by water as if they were adjacent. The citizen still moves only "one Region", they just ignored all the regions inbetween thanks to the boats.

However, I don't think you can, say, sea convoy a citizen, rearrange your ships, then sea convoy that citizen again with Roads. But I'm not certain.
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dave
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islan wrote:
If it helps to clarify: sea convoys basically allow you to treat two land tiles separated by water as if they were adjacent. The citizen still moves only "one Region", they just ignored all the regions inbetween thanks to the boats.

However, I don't think you can, say, sea convoy a citizen, rearrange your ships, then sea convoy that citizen again with Roads. But I'm not certain.
That sounds like a double convoy move--which I can't imagine would be allowed with the necessarily land-based, on the ground roads. I like permissive, but that might be tooo..
 
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Jonathan Challis
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dave65tdh wrote:
That sounds like a double convoy move--which I can't imagine would be allowed with the necessarily land-based, on the ground roads. I like permissive, but that might be tooo..


no that's a single convoy - the convoy side is completely normal and legal.

The question is essentially can you split your Roads movement either side of a convoy move, and I don't see why not. The Convoy lets you travel as if the sea were land essentially.
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Nick Clinite
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Kelanen wrote:


no that's a single convoy - the convoy side is completely normal and legal.

The question is essentially can you split your Roads movement either side of a convoy move, and I don't see why not. The Convoy lets you travel as if the sea were land essentially.


Exactly that, though more abstractly I would say the question is "when I migrate a citizen, do I perform their migration all at once, or one Region at a time?" If it's one Region at a time, then I should be able to rearrange ships between the two Region movements, and perform a second convoy.
 
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Marcus Spinner
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Can someone give this a thought about this card and this action? I'm still not sure how far you can travel with roads and a convoy.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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MarcusSpinner wrote:
Can someone give this a thought about this card and this action? I'm still not sure how far you can travel with roads and a convoy.


We've given you our thoughts?

A convoy doesn't change how far you migrate - it's still 1 hex, you can just cross water doing it. Convoys don't give you extra movement.

Roads changes your movement from 1 hex to two.
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Marcus Spinner
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Thnx for the quick awnser!
 
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Nick Clinite
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You can definitely convoy and use Roads with the same migration. The only thing that's still uncertain for me is if you can sea convoy twice with Roads in the same migration.
 
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Pas L
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islan wrote:
You can definitely convoy and use Roads with the same migration. The only thing that's still uncertain for me is if you can sea convoy twice with Roads in the same migration.


Not if you move the ships halfway through. The rules of the game (IIRC) explicitly state that. Otherwise I don't see why not - though I'm not sure it would be applicable very often?

 
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Nick Clinite
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lamaros wrote:

Not if you move the ships halfway through. The rules of the game (IIRC) explicitly state that. Otherwise I don't see why not - though I'm not sure it would be applicable very often?



The rules state you can't move the ships halfway through a convoy, not halfway through a migration. (to be specific, it just says "The ship can perform its own migration before or after the sea convoy", not during).

I am personally ruling that each unit's migration is executed and completed individually, meaning that a citizen cannot migrate one region by convoy, then migrate a ship (or move it within its own region), and then use Roads to migrate the citizen again by convoy. It sounds to me like that is the intention.
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Marcus Spinner
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Can someone post a graphical image about the moves we are talking?
 
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Nick Clinite
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MarcusSpinner wrote:
Can someone post a graphical image about the moves we are talking?


Here's the original question, which I think we all agree is do-able:



Step 1) Convoy citizen.
Step 2) Use Roads to migrate the same citizen one more region.

And here's what I am unsure of:



Step 1) Convoy citizen.
Step 2) Migrate (or rearrange) ships.
Step 3) Use Roads to convoy the same citizen one more region.

I don't think it is intended for this to be allowed.
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Jonathan Challis
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I agree with Nick on both scenarios.
 
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Marcus Spinner
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I agree on what is said but I think it could be a legit action.

"During migration, all your citizens may move by one additional region."

In the first example the citzen only moved from one land hex to another (ships convoy) and then moves to another hex by land. So, move + move = 2 x move

In the second example the citzen moved from one land hex to another land hex (ship convey), the player migrates his ships and then the meeple does exactly the same movement (from one land to another by ship convey). So, same movement + same movement = 2 x samemovement

one additional region = 2 x move or 2 x same movement.

My gut feeling says this is legit because it's exactly the same like a normal land movement, land move + land move = 2 x land move.

Also using a ships convey multiple times is allowed in the example in the rule book, the yellow player uses his ship to convey first two meeples and again one meeple so conveying with the same ship multiple times is a legit action.

Just my train of thought.
 
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Nick Clinite
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MarcusSpinner wrote:
I agree on what is said but I think it could be a legit action.


It could definitely be argued as such. Which is why I said upthread that the real question is "do I have to complete each unit's entire migration completely before migrating a different unit or rearrange my ships to region edges?" That's really all it comes down to.
 
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Marcus Spinner
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A ship can help one or more citizens cross the sea. So both illustrated pictures are allowed with roads.
 
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Nick Clinite
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MarcusSpinner wrote:
A ship can help one or more citizens cross the sea. So both illustrated pictures are allowed with roads.


That's ... not the question.
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Marcus Spinner
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Convey citzen from one region to another region is one migration, by activating roads you move an additional region even though it's a convey. In the second example the ship can still convey after it's on migration. So therefore the meeple can be conveyed two times by using a convey even if there were two ships and the one ship didn't convey the same meeple can migrate twice.
 
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Nick Clinite
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That's not the question, Marcus. The question is, can the ships be moved inbetween a single citizen's two region movements (the Step 2 of the second example above), both of which are convoys? It's not about maximum allowed convoys or citizens in a convoy.

MarcusSpinner wrote:
Convey citzen from one region to another region is one migration, by activating roads you move an additional region even though it's a convey. In the second example the ship can still convey after it's on migration. So therefore the meeple can be conveyed two times by using a convey even if there were two ships and the one ship didn't convey the same meeple can migrate twice.
 
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