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Subject: Conquered Nations & Turkey rss

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Corrado Soprano
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If a nation is conquered does that mean that armies may no longer traverse its territory? I assume that areas which have already been occupied remain under the control of their occupiers.

If Anatolia is successfully attacked and occupied Turkey will be considered conquered. If Gallipoli has not yet been attacked and occupied does it fall under control of the conquering power? How could the TE gain control of Gallipoli at this point? Thanks.
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Chris Friend
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Uncle Stunod wrote:
If a nation is conquered does that mean that armies may no longer traverse its territory? I assume that areas which have already been occupied remain under the control of their occupiers.

If Anatolia is successfully attacked and occupied Turkey will be considered conquered. If Gallipoli has not yet been attacked and occupied does it fall under control of the conquering power? How could the TE gain control of Gallipoli at this point? Thanks.


Herm or Kirk will no doubt answer but until they do I'll take a crack at it.

Look at 10.1.1 Conquered Nations. All Turkish units are permanently removed except one. And that one is made spent if it isn't already. Presumably that one spent army will be in Gallipoli if it was there when Anatolia fell per 10.1.2. The way for the TE to take Gallipoli in this situation is to attack the one spent Turkish army normally. If the TE attack is successful, the spent Turkish Army then retreats to an adjacent territory if it can. Presumably Bulgaria if they've entered the war at this point. It may never be refit but at some point may be absorbed by an ally. Again, presumably Bulgaria. Similar to the Belgium example on p. 22.

Now, as for any other unoccupied Turkish areas, they will have to be attacked by whoever wants to occupy them following one of the two Attack procedures in the boxes on p. 11. Attacking an Unoccupied Enemy Area. Either 1. That the attackers alliance originally owned (for the CP to attack it – call it a CP liberation attempt) or 2. That the opposing alliance originally owned (for the TE to attack and occupy it).

That’s how I will answer your question. It would be a great idea for the TE to attack Gallipoli because obviously having control of both the Gallipoli and Anatolia areas will allow the TE/WA player to move units and/or transfer PP to Russia.

Hopefully Herm or Kirk will confirm my answer. If not, I’ve solidified a little more my knowledge of this great game.

~ Chris
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Kirk Uhlmann
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Once a nation is conquered, all armies of that nation are immediately removed except for a maximum of one army that finds itself in friendly controlled territory and is made spent if not already.

In the case of Turkey, after the defeat of Anatolia, the only potential surviving Turkish army would be one already outside of Turkey or if an army from Anatolia retreated to Gallipoli which contained a German army, for example.

Otherwise, upon conquering Turkey (or similar with Austria-Hungary or Italy) all unoccupied Turkish areas are now considered Triple Entente controlled (you may use control markers in these cases to help you remember). In essence, unoccupied areas of the conquered nation can be considered unoccupied territories friendly to the conquering nation as if they were the last to pass through them.

If Gallipoli did not have a non-Turkish C.P. army in it already, it would immediately be considered to be under T.E. control. If, for example, Gallipoli had a German army there, upon the conquering of Anatolia, one Turkish army could retreat to Gallipoli because it is friendly controlled and the Triple Entente would have to fight the German army to take control (and the German army could subsequently absorb the Turkish army).

Let's say there is no German army in Gallipoli and all Turkish armies (and no others) inside of Turkey. Upon conquering of Anatolia, all Turk armies would be removed and all Turkish areas would immediately be considered T.E. friendly (though some unoccupied). If Germany later wanted to liberate the unoccupied Gallipoli, it would be fighting a garrison there and would consider Gallipoli to be originally friendly (CP) controlled (so Germany would have the easier time liberating it).

Note that Turkey will never participate in the war again after having been conquered, even if all of Turkey is liberated. However, once liberated those areas won't count as VP's for the Triple Entente at the end.

Kirk
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Kirk Uhlmann
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Chris,

Pretty much right. I almost prefer having the conquering armies have to take each unoccupied territory (vs. garrison) to actually control it from a gameplay perspective, but there were some potential inconsistencies with that (from gameplay or realism). This went back and forth a few times and I'll have to go back through the old notes to try to get the details.

Kirk
 
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Chris Friend
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OK so I'm only partially right (I think). Better than not at all. I got this part wrong:

"Otherwise, upon conquering Turkey (or similar with Austria-Hungary or Italy) all unoccupied Turkish areas are now considered Triple Entente controlled (you may use control markers in these cases to help you remember). In essence, unoccupied areas of the conquered nation can be considered unoccupied territories friendly to the conquering nation as if they were the last to pass through them."

As a consequence, unfortunately, I am now completely confused by the second sentence of 10.1.1. "If units are removed from an enemy controlled area resulting in no opposing units being present, ownership of that area revert to the original owner.”

Who is who in the Turkey example?

"If units are removed from an enemy controlled area {Who is the "enemy"? Turkey in the OP example above?} resulting in no opposing units being present {again, who are the “opposing units” here? Turkey again?} ownership of that area revert to the original owner.” {But the original owner is Turkey! }

It's unclear now who is "enemy", or "opposing". Sorry. I'm dense so I now I don’t get it.

Part of your answer: "In essence, unoccupied areas of the conquered nation can be considered unoccupied territories friendly to the conquering nation as if they were the last to pass through them."

Where does it say this in the rulebook? Not in 10.1.1 or 10.1.2 that I see. Where is the "as if" and "in essence" part? Meaning something has to be inferred?

It's probably obvious somewhere but I don't see it.
I'll just shut up now and muddle through.
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Corrado Soprano
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Thank you for the response.

In your response you mention that if Turkey were to surrender upon the capture of Anatolia one Turkish army would be able to survive (permanently spent) only if a German army was occupying Gallipoli, to which the Turkish army could retreat.

So if all of a nation's armies are present on home areas when a nation surrenders, then all must be eliminated, unless one of the home areas is occupied by an ally?

We're enjoying the game immensely, by the way.
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HERMANN LUTTMANN
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Chris - that case would apply if, for example, an A-H army were in Russia and A-H gets conquered. The A-H army is removed and Russia would regain control of their area.

Corrado - thanks! Glad you're enjoying the game. Correct - the Conquered Army rule (or the "exiled army" rule) applies only if that army is out of country and in friendly territory. The most common examples are the Belgian army in France and the Serbian army in Greece. These units would have had to be retreated out of their country by an enemy attack during the phase that their home country is conquered. In the Turkey example, if all the Turkish armies are in Turkey, there would not be a surviving army. If there is a German army in Gallipoli, technically Gallipoli would revert to allied control upon Turkey being conquered and then switch immediately back to German control because of the German army presence. That German army then shelters the one exiled Turkish army.

Herm
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Chris Friend
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Uncle Stunod wrote:
Thank you for the response.

In your response you mention that if Turkey were to surrender upon the capture of Anatolia one Turkish army would be able to survive (permanently spent) only if a German army was occupying Gallipoli, to which the Turkish army could retreat.

So if all of a nation's armies are present on home areas when a nation surrenders, then all must be eliminated, unless one of the home areas is occupied by an ally?

We're enjoying the game immensely, by the way.


I know I said I'd shut up now, but I can't help myself sometimes. 10.1.2 says friendly controlled, not friendly occupied.

I would respectfully ask Kirk and Hermann, designer and developer, to relook the wording of 10.1.1 and 10.1.2 in their entirety for clarity in any future living rules update or errata. Guard against pronouns that could be interpreted incorrectly (e.g. enemy, opponent) and any text causing a player to have to infer anything (as if, in essence). Understanding conquered nations and territories clearly are terribly important to winning and enjoying the game. Please don't take this in any way as a negative or criticism.

-edit - Herm our replys crossed each other. I get the A-H in Russia example but OI'm afraid the Turkey example is still unclear. Now I will shut up and reread all of 10.0 two or five times.
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HERMANN LUTTMANN
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Thanks Chris - no offense taken! I'm not looking at the rulebook myself, but friendly-occupied is not the same as friendly-controlled?
In any case, we'll get it straightened out and make it absolutely clear.

Herm
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Chris Friend
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I do have the book in front of me but that's neither here nor there I think. Friendly occupied may or may not be the same thing strictly speaking. If it's occupied, it's controlled. If not occupied it could still be controlled if last to pass thru, hence the control markers, right?

The game is great. All this discussion is also good and makes the game better. For me at least.
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