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Dominion: Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Colonnade Landmark Question rss

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Roger Wood

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I was playing with Colonnade and we had a scenario that included Duplicate. The question arose that if one bought a card and then called Duplicate to gain a copy of it, do you get 2 or 4VP tokens?

We played it as only receiving 2VP, as the card reads "When you buy" and does not include "when you gain". I was curious if we interpreted this correctly.
 
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Matt E
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You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.
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LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.
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conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?
 
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Chris Schumann
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ackmondual wrote:
What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?
One is using Watchtower to trash it instead of gain it.
 
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Whizkid wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?
One is using Watchtower to trash it instead of gain it.


With Watchtower, you still Gain it. You couldn't Reveal Watchtower otherwise.

Trader on the other hand has weird timing. You Reveal it when you would Gain a card, and then don't; you get a Silver instead. So you could Buy a Copper, reveal a Trader and Gain a Silver, never having gained the Copper.
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Matt E
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Whizkid wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?
One is using Watchtower to trash it instead of gain it.

You still gain the card with Watchtower; you just trash it afterward. Trader can prevent you from gaining a bought card, as can Possession (you are forced to buy a card, but it's the possessing player that actually gains it).
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LastFootnote wrote:
Whizkid wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?
One is using Watchtower to trash it instead of gain it.

You still gain the card with Watchtower; you just trash it afterward. Trader can prevent you from gaining a bought card, as can Possession (you are forced to buy a card, but it's the possessing player that actually gains it).


With Watchtower and trashing, if you WERE able to Trash and not gain it, then technically, you wouldn't be buying it either.


Yeah, Possession fits the bill as described cool
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Clive Jones

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Hmm. Interesting. I'd not really noticed that, while there are cards with on-buy effects, none of them do something instead of gaining them.

I guess that space has mainly been taken up by Events.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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ackmondual wrote:
With Watchtower and trashing, if you WERE able to Trash and not gain it, then technically, you wouldn't be buying it either.

You buy a card by paying its price. Suppose there was a Trader-Watchtower hybrid (Trade-tower?) that trashed but triggered on buy. You would still have bought the card even though you trashed it with Trade-tower and did not gain it.
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Robert Crawford
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ackmondual wrote:
conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?


In addition to Trader and Possession.... if you have a Talisman in play, and you buy a card that costs $4 or less, and only has 1 copy of that card left in the pile... then Talisman's on-buy ability will cause you to gain that last card. After which the normal gain that should happen because of the buy will fail, as there's no card left to gain.

So while you do still end up gaining the card you bought; you didn't gain it as a result of buying it.
 
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GendoIkari_82 wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?


In addition to Trader and Possession.... if you have a Talisman in play, and you buy a card that costs $4 or less, and only has 1 copy of that card left in the pile... then Talisman's on-buy ability will cause you to gain that last card. After which the normal gain that should happen because of the buy will fail, as there's no card left to gain.

So while you do still end up gaining the card you bought; you didn't gain it as a result of buying it.
I don't think this qualifies...

You buy a $4 card with Talisman in play. Let's say Throne Room...
-You buy the card which also counts as a gaining it too.
-Then you would also gain a copy of TR via Talisman, but there are no TR's left in its pile, so nothing happens.

This doesn't illustrating buying a card without having gained it.
 
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Donald X.
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ackmondual wrote:
GendoIkari_82 wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?


In addition to Trader and Possession.... if you have a Talisman in play, and you buy a card that costs $4 or less, and only has 1 copy of that card left in the pile... then Talisman's on-buy ability will cause you to gain that last card. After which the normal gain that should happen because of the buy will fail, as there's no card left to gain.

So while you do still end up gaining the card you bought; you didn't gain it as a result of buying it.
I don't think this qualifies...

You buy a $4 card with Talisman in play. Let's say Throne Room...
-You buy the card which also counts as a gaining it too.
-Then you would also gain a copy of TR via Talisman, but there are no TR's left in its pile, so nothing happens.

This doesn't illustrating buying a card without having gained it.

No, Gendo is correct. When-buy things happen before actually gaining the card.
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donaldx wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
GendoIkari_82 wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?


In addition to Trader and Possession.... if you have a Talisman in play, and you buy a card that costs $4 or less, and only has 1 copy of that card left in the pile... then Talisman's on-buy ability will cause you to gain that last card. After which the normal gain that should happen because of the buy will fail, as there's no card left to gain.

So while you do still end up gaining the card you bought; you didn't gain it as a result of buying it.
I don't think this qualifies...

You buy a $4 card with Talisman in play. Let's say Throne Room...
-You buy the card which also counts as a gaining it too.
-Then you would also gain a copy of TR via Talisman, but there are no TR's left in its pile, so nothing happens.

This doesn't illustrating buying a card without having gained it.

No, Gendo is correct. When-buy things happen before actually gaining the card.
yeah, I'm definitely missing it. In the previous example, the first purchase of the TR was considered a buy, but wasn't gained?
 
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Robert Crawford
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ackmondual wrote:
donaldx wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
GendoIkari_82 wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
conmanau wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
You interpreted it correctly. Buying a card causes you to gain that card, but there are many ways to gain cards without buying them (like Duplicate). Colonnade only triggers on buying a card.

And there are also a handful of ways to buy a card and not gain it.


What are cases where buying a card isn't also gaining it?


In addition to Trader and Possession.... if you have a Talisman in play, and you buy a card that costs $4 or less, and only has 1 copy of that card left in the pile... then Talisman's on-buy ability will cause you to gain that last card. After which the normal gain that should happen because of the buy will fail, as there's no card left to gain.

So while you do still end up gaining the card you bought; you didn't gain it as a result of buying it.
I don't think this qualifies...

You buy a $4 card with Talisman in play. Let's say Throne Room...
-You buy the card which also counts as a gaining it too.
-Then you would also gain a copy of TR via Talisman, but there are no TR's left in its pile, so nothing happens.

This doesn't illustrating buying a card without having gained it.

No, Gendo is correct. When-buy things happen before actually gaining the card.
yeah, I'm definitely missing it. In the previous example, the first purchase of the TR was considered a buy, but wasn't gained?


Buying is an event that causes a gain, but buying a card doesn't "count as gaining it too". After you buy it, but before your gain it, things that say "when you buy" happen.

(This actually matters for things like buying a Grand Market with Haggler in play and choosing Inn as your free card from Haggler. When you get to do Inn's when-gain stuff, Grand Market has not yet been gained and isn't in your discard pile yet, so you can't shuffle it into your deck).

So in this case, Talisman's "when you buy" happens after you buy the last Throne Room, but before you gain it. Talisman makes you gain that Throne Room, and after that, the regular "you bought, so now you gain" tries to happen, but all Throne Rooms are gone, so you don't gain another one.

To clarify, this is not an example of buying a card without ever gaining that card, but it is an example of a way to buy a card without that buy resulting in a gain (the Talisman resulted in the gain; the buy did not).
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Jeff Wolfe
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ackmondual wrote:
yeah, I'm definitely missing it. In the previous example, the first purchase of the TR was considered a buy, but wasn't gained?

You buy a card by paying its cost. As a consequence of buying it, you gain it. Two things happen:

Buy
Gain

There are certain other things that can happen along with buy and gain. They happen in this order:

Buy
..when-buy

..would-gain
Gain
..when-gain

So:
You buy a Throne Room by paying its cost
The when-buy of Talisman triggers and you gain a copy of Throne Room
The Gain as a consequence of the buy tries to happen and fails

Edit: ninja
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Clive Jones

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donaldx wrote:
No, Gendo is correct. When-buy things happen before actually gaining the card.

Gosh!

I've never seen it matter in actual play, but I'd have expected gain (including would-gain and on-gain triggers) to be an on-buy effect, which the player could order as they wished relative to any other on-buy effects their purchase triggered.

I live and learn.
 
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